Plain Old Gas ( POG )

[spdmonkey]

Frankly I see AVgas as pump fuel. To me its no different from the race fuel I can buy at a station 4 miles from my house. The airport is just another mile and I can buy their gas too. This initiative is aimed at stuff like rocketfuel and others that are custom blended. Once you smell it you never forget it and anybody can tell the difference. While I have a SM you won't find me running the decal or the fuel its aimed to reduce. Its a gimmick.

[keycom]

I have yet to find an airport (small or otherwise) in my area that will sell me avgas. They require it to be put directly into an airplane.

[itracer]

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

Just have everyone who is using "normal" gas, as defined here (with no additives, and not harmful to others) run an "X" on thier gas covers.

[dickita15]

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

I think this a great idea for SM but I don’t think it is about enforcement, it is about trying to change the culture.

[IPRESS]

Guys, here is a little history on the subject. The POG deal is sort of an extension of the Pro motor deal in SM. Some folks have not been able to get their hands around the reality that SM is sorta spec but not all the way. These agreements worked OK when it was a regional class, but with "The Runoffs" involved all out escalation has taken place and some of the guys don't like it. One of the first targets was the dreaded Pro Motor, but nothing has been done to fix that problem, and the guys who were against that have taken up the POG cause. For some reason SCCA has not been able to outlaw some of these wild blended car cocktails. I am sure it is not easy to fix this problem or it already would have been addressed. The POG backers (and they mean well) are trying to use peer pressure to stop the exotic fule usage. I don't think it will work with National points at stake. People will use whatever is within the rules to prep to the max. Until the exotics CAN be legally outlawed I don't see some guys stopping their usage. The exotics can make a difference in a group of highly prepped SMs where every bit of added HP/TQ can be a difference maker. Of course with the last two RO winners in SM getting MX5 Cup rides, there is a little more up for grabs. (Although winning ARRC is bigger in my eyes!!!!)

As far as IT, if nobody uses it in the NE or SE it is not a problem. The rest of us are probably not near as serious (well maybe some of the Left Coast!)
Let Andy and his SMAC buddies try to fix it for them.
Not really a need here.
Jeff the S brothers mean well, and maybe a POG ground swell will push the powers that be to act, but I think they already would have done something if they could.

[IPRESS]

As a follow up, I understand that the fuel testing situation is very COMPLEX and has tons of variables. I would love to see every one using track / pump gas (at least common and available) as I would love to see other things in racing be held to a cost cap. BUT it ain't going to happen.
I support the idea of POG, but I am not comfortable with the idea that if someone disagrees he or she is made to look like a cheater when they are well within the rules.
As far as an agreement / smell test etc. How many times has the old "Lets work together and draft away from the pack." agreement gone to hell in a handbag as soon as the green flag flys?
Is that guy you had a deal with to draft together a dirty SOB cause he got a jump and left you behind? Should you wear a Tshirt that proclaims such? I don't think so.

[JohnRW]

As the Chemists can tell you, testing protocols & systems will never keep up with the ability of fuel blenders to blend rocket fuels. Lost cause.

Only solutions are "tagged" fuel with a known % of chemical tracer (as at the RunOffs the last few years), or else do what the go-karters do - a "pump around", where everybody's fuel is mixed in one big tub, and everyone has to draw fuel off that tub.

[Parrish57]

Greg,

I wouldn't personally consider 100LL or any other aviation fuel to be within the concept of POG, but let's talk about that! After all, I want this to be a community thing.

So, why do you feel that avgas could be considered POG? Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

In St. Louis, I only know of one retail pump to buy avgas (I'm sure there could be more), but it's $7/gallon and not intended or legal to be pumped into a car.

Jeff ... First and foremost I'd like to say thank you for the effort and intent of POG. I've known for a very long time that my fellow competitors are taking more advantage of the fuel rules than I am but that thread on SM dot com was an eye opener. That being said, I hope you don't get upset if I offer some divergent opinions.

First, I'd like to address the 100LL Avgas issue. I'm not comfortable using 93 octane in my fully (?) ITS prepared motor. I know of one 240Z pilot that was insistant on using 93 but had to repair too many detonated motors. I've never ran anything but 100LL or 100 unleaded race fuel. I've used both on the dyno and there is only one difference: PRICE! I don't change ANYTHING on my car to go between the two fuels. At my local airport the price today is $4.84/gal. That's right in line with the national average. If someone is trying to charge you $7 per gal you are getting severly ripped! If you would like to know what you should be paying in your part of the country for avgas go to http://www.100ll.com/ By contrast, I paid $7.49 per gallon last week at Carolina Motorsports Park for Sonoco 100 Unleaded. I'm all for keeping the super exotics out of IT racing, but if you are suggesting that I should volunteer to pay an extra $2.65 per gal to get essentially the same fuel then I'll have to pass on POG. As for your statment that Avgas is "not intended or legal to be pumped into a car", the only part that is accurate is that it is not legal to pump avgas directly into a STREET car as there is no road tax applied to aviation fuel. If you show up at the airport with your gas cans and assure the FBO that you are not using this fuel on pubic roads you should not have a problem. If they still refuse to sell it to you they are being overprotective and you shouldn't penalize me for that.

The second statment that I have to reiterate is that I want no part of using peer pressure to insinuate that the guys I'm chasing are doing anything wrong by using the $36 per gal fuels. IT is not a spec class. It has taken me a very long time to legally get to the pointy end of the grid. I'm sure that the guys and gals that are chasing me now know that I am outspending them. (I hope and pray that they don't assume that I'm cheating to get there). Meanwhile the cars that I'm chasing are outspending me 3 to 1. Folks, that's racing. It's true from the smallest little go kart track all the way to F1. There will always be the haves and the have nots.

In a Utopian IT world we would all come to a gentlemens agreement to run the same fuel, tires, shocks, motors, widgets, and driver ability. If you can get the IT community to agree to spec anything I'm with you. Until then I'll just keep doing what I'm doing!

[gsbaker]

...and ASTM-certified and -tested...

What?! I think all gas should be SFI certified.

[gsbaker]

I have heard that in the karting world, especially among the youngsters, all the tanks get drained into a common container and then refilled from that container, so everyone burns the same fuel mix.

[Ron Earp]

I'd second what Steve says.

While I'd like a POG sticker for my car, and find the slogan humorous, I wouldn't want others to feel peer pressure to run POG or for folks to think I feel they are doing something wrong by running non-POG.

My car seems to like POG, but my car has a tad bit less compression than Steve's and the combustion chamber design is a bit more resistant to detonation (I'm told). Maybe I need to mix up a bit of a cocktail to make sure I don't have to rebuild my engine on a regular basis. While on a purely compression ratio evaluation I'd estimate I should be fine with 93 (~9.2 : 1), after thinking about the carburetors, uneven mixture distribution the cylinders, various changing conditions, maybe I could use a bit of insurance. I'm sure the guys that have higher compressions would like the insurance - 10.5 stock on some BMWs!! Couple that with racing and there probably isn't a lot of room for error.

100LL is available at any local airport for not huge money. When I flew often I'd pick it up for my Lotus that was running a lot of boost, just to have a bit of insurance to keep detonation at bay. I'd not begrudge anyone who wanted that little bit of extra insurance in their IT car.

Steve, I don't know if you're outspending me or not (my wife would say no way!), but I know you're out-driving me! And I know you aren't cheating, and the other fellows know that too. Keep on keeping on, I want to see that Z win some SAARC races (or at least come in close behind a TR8 and 260Z! )

R

[chuck baader]

I have even read most of the statements on this thread, and I have one major problem with running the exotic fuels....they obviously precipitate oxygen during the combustion process! All IT motors I know of are limited by the intake....that is, only so much oxygen can be introduced to combustion chamber...that is what limits horse power. If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

[Marcus Miller]

If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

By which rule?

How can it be illegal if it passes tech?
I only run track gas, there is no chance in hell I'm paying $36 a gallon for fuel...

Marcus

[wcmcarlos]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

[Greg Amy]

How can it be illegal if it passes tech?

Oh, boy, here we go...

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal".

Balancing and blueprinting Miata engines in SM is expressly illegal to the rules; it's actually written in there. But, competitors still do it because it's unenforceable. Ergo, although balanced and blueprinted engines are expressly illegal to the rules, they are still done.

Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway.

(I find is amusing both debates/discussions/arguments center around the same vehicle prep category... purely coincidental, I'm sure... )

[Ron Earp]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Not sure that has a lot to do with the fuel, at least not all the time it doesn't. It might have more to do with how much unburned fuel is being expelled.

My Z runs POS and it will absolutely make your eyes water if you are within 10 feet of it at idle. It has almost made me pass out loading it onto an enclosed trailer without proper ventilation. One reason I don't sit on the grid and idle.

[JohnRW]

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal"....

&

...Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway....

The GCR specifies a "dielectric coefficient" test, and one or more "reagent" tests to determine legality. If a fuel passes these tests, how is it not legal ? Where in the rules are there specifications other than those spelled out in the fuel testing protocols ? What is "expressly illegal" ?

[Parrish57]

Oh, boy, here we go...

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal".
Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway.

Oh boy, here we go........

My views against using exotic fuels have been expressed in this thread so I won't repeat them. But I will reiterate my defence of those who are willing to spend up to 36 bucks per gallon for LEGAL race fuels. The fuel regs have been posted repeatedly and not one person has posted evidence that these fuels violate the GCR. Go to the VP website and review the specs for SR1 fuel. There are a lot of other fuels that proclaim to meet SCCA standards. http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html

[Parrish57]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Carlos.... Thanks for volunteering to make all of this possible!!! One of the worst offenders I've experienced on the grid is the RX7. Not throwing darts, it's just a matter of unburned fuel. My understanding of rotories is that they are the LEAST likely to use exotic fuels. 87 octane is the flavor of choice for them......

[JeffYoung]

TR8 runs on nuclear power. Things that make you go boom, boom, things that make you go boom, boom.

For me, if the "stuff" passes whatever fuel test there is, then what it costs or what's in it is irrelevant. Does the GCR specifically BAN additives in fuel or does it simply say the gas must pass x.y.z tests? If the latter, well, then what's in it matters not.

P.S. I am a Plain Old Gasser, who usually gets beat by Mr. Parrish although I now know his secret. I'm switching up his fuel jugs with mine before the next race.