Plain Old Gas ( POG )

[77ITA]

Greg,

I wouldn't personally consider 100LL or any other aviation fuel to be within the concept of POG, but let's talk about that! After all, I want this to be a community thing.

So, why do you feel that avgas could be considered POG? Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

In St. Louis, I only know of one retail pump to buy avgas (I'm sure there could be more), but it's $7/gallon and not intended or legal to be pumped into a car.

[Greg Amy]

Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

Depends, but no, not necessarily. But, really, is leaded high octane racing fuel "easily accessible to all racers" at "all" race tracks...?

100LL is available depending on your local small airport's standards/concerns; most will sell it to you, but some airport operators get nervous with someone that walks up with cans in hand (remember, the 9/11 asswipes learned to fly at small airports, so "we" are always on guard). Legally - at least Federally - there's no restrictions, as long as it's not used on the highway, for the most part sales are up to your local FBO's discretion.

I guess it comes down to what the priorities of the group are. If the group wants the ability for anyone, anywhere to walk up and buy the fuel, then I agree that 100LL may be disqualified (but then again, so may be leaded racing fuel at some/many tracks). But, if the priority is to discourage someone from using these weird-ass toluene, propolene, assolene, poopoleen brews, then 100LL is nowhere near that and is more kindred spirit with Sunoco 100GT...

Also, to be considered when asking other race classifications to join in, many of us are allowed engine modifications far and above the stock engine "ideal" of Spec Miata, and thus need something more than 93 octane...

I'll read through the web site docs tomorrow, and become a bit more informed of the expectations/standards...

GA

[MMiskoe]

3. Must meet all existing SCCA fuel regulations for the class.
4. Must not contain additives.

How do you deal with alcohol enriched fuels that you get at the pump? They don't pass SCCA standards. Just curious

I think what you're up to is good, but its pretty hard to enforce. Some of the really exotic stuff will pass the current testing while some POG's will not.

Short of a 'pump around' (everyone pumps out half their tank and hands it to the next guy who dumps it in his tank) I'm not sure how you do address it.

[shwah]

Hence the gentleman's agreement aspect.

I run 100 unleaded for just a little more comfort that I won't blow things up if something becomes not right in the fueling or igntion. Would that qualify as POG? I buy it at the local gas station pump.

[77ITA]

First and foremost:

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Tom e-mailed me tonight and mentioned that there are already IT racers trying to sign up over at plainoldgas.com - Do no do this yet... If/when the time comes, you will get the stickers from me :cool:

Greg,

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG. It's certainly up for discussion and I appreciate your input.

MMiskoe,
There is no enforcement. This is a proposed gentleman's agreement, not a rule and the specifications about what type of fuel is adequate as written. Yes it could be torn apart and we could argue semantics about fuel like we do with every other IT rule, but that's not what this is about at all.

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

[joeg]

$36.00 per gallon is likely going to be the price of POG in the not to distant future...

[shwah]

First and foremost:

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

OK. I buy mine from the local gas station pump, it's just Sunoco 100 unleaded. I'm not trying to nit pick details, I just wouldn't want to run the sticker unless what I am doing is consedered within the spirit of the agreement.

[lateapex911]

Yea, for this to work in the IT world, where high(er) compression engines are more common, (ITC=10.5, > ITR=11.5), guys like Chris, who is buying "safety" gas...need to be covered. Limiting it to "at the track" (or the same as at the track, by that do you mean exact manufacturer, etc?) is adding lots of inconvenience and probably un-needed expense to the agreement.

I never buy track gas...my car runs as well on 87 unleaded as it does on anything else. Somebody, please educate me as to what is typically available at the track, and, to take it a step further, what is the difference between those options, and the AV gas tGA speaks of?

If I understand the intent of the policy correctly... (Kirk's web bots will fire off an email to him upon seeing the term "policy" used at IT.com, LOL)...it's to keep the exotic and wacko formulations out. But, that might need amending for IT vs. SM. Perhaps there could be a second tier "POG" sticker, one with a "Declaration" blank line where the owner Declares his fuel, and writes it on the line. For me, that would be "87 UL", for Greg, that would be "100 LL", and for Chris, that would be "100 UL". Thoughts?

[Greg Amy]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG.

Then, unfortunately, I cannot support the "POG" initiative. I agree with it in concept, but disagree with its implementation. Gasoline is gasoline (and, in fact, avgas is far more stable and consistent than any other world-wide...and ASTM-certified and -tested).

I suggest the initiative is better suited for stock-engined, stock-ecu'd classes such as Spec Miata (hah!) and Showroom Stock (?) but not for classes that allow internal engine modifications and modded ECUs. While I may not (probably don't) "need" higher-octane fuels, I'll never run street gas again; I've burned up too many engines in testing and development to skimp on a few dollars per gallon in fuels... - GA

[gsbaker]

...and ASTM-certified and -tested...

What?! I think all gas should be SFI certified.

[keycom]

I have yet to find an airport (small or otherwise) in my area that will sell me avgas. They require it to be put directly into an airplane.

[wcmcarlos]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

[Ron Earp]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Not sure that has a lot to do with the fuel, at least not all the time it doesn't. It might have more to do with how much unburned fuel is being expelled.

My Z runs POS and it will absolutely make your eyes water if you are within 10 feet of it at idle. It has almost made me pass out loading it onto an enclosed trailer without proper ventilation. One reason I don't sit on the grid and idle.

[Parrish57]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Carlos.... Thanks for volunteering to make all of this possible!!! One of the worst offenders I've experienced on the grid is the RX7. Not throwing darts, it's just a matter of unburned fuel. My understanding of rotories is that they are the LEAST likely to use exotic fuels. 87 octane is the flavor of choice for them......

[Parrish57]

Greg,

I wouldn't personally consider 100LL or any other aviation fuel to be within the concept of POG, but let's talk about that! After all, I want this to be a community thing.

So, why do you feel that avgas could be considered POG? Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

In St. Louis, I only know of one retail pump to buy avgas (I'm sure there could be more), but it's $7/gallon and not intended or legal to be pumped into a car.

Jeff ... First and foremost I'd like to say thank you for the effort and intent of POG. I've known for a very long time that my fellow competitors are taking more advantage of the fuel rules than I am but that thread on SM dot com was an eye opener. That being said, I hope you don't get upset if I offer some divergent opinions.

First, I'd like to address the 100LL Avgas issue. I'm not comfortable using 93 octane in my fully (?) ITS prepared motor. I know of one 240Z pilot that was insistant on using 93 but had to repair too many detonated motors. I've never ran anything but 100LL or 100 unleaded race fuel. I've used both on the dyno and there is only one difference: PRICE! I don't change ANYTHING on my car to go between the two fuels. At my local airport the price today is $4.84/gal. That's right in line with the national average. If someone is trying to charge you $7 per gal you are getting severly ripped! If you would like to know what you should be paying in your part of the country for avgas go to http://www.100ll.com/ By contrast, I paid $7.49 per gallon last week at Carolina Motorsports Park for Sonoco 100 Unleaded. I'm all for keeping the super exotics out of IT racing, but if you are suggesting that I should volunteer to pay an extra $2.65 per gal to get essentially the same fuel then I'll have to pass on POG. As for your statment that Avgas is "not intended or legal to be pumped into a car", the only part that is accurate is that it is not legal to pump avgas directly into a STREET car as there is no road tax applied to aviation fuel. If you show up at the airport with your gas cans and assure the FBO that you are not using this fuel on pubic roads you should not have a problem. If they still refuse to sell it to you they are being overprotective and you shouldn't penalize me for that.

The second statment that I have to reiterate is that I want no part of using peer pressure to insinuate that the guys I'm chasing are doing anything wrong by using the $36 per gal fuels. IT is not a spec class. It has taken me a very long time to legally get to the pointy end of the grid. I'm sure that the guys and gals that are chasing me now know that I am outspending them. (I hope and pray that they don't assume that I'm cheating to get there). Meanwhile the cars that I'm chasing are outspending me 3 to 1. Folks, that's racing. It's true from the smallest little go kart track all the way to F1. There will always be the haves and the have nots.

In a Utopian IT world we would all come to a gentlemens agreement to run the same fuel, tires, shocks, motors, widgets, and driver ability. If you can get the IT community to agree to spec anything I'm with you. Until then I'll just keep doing what I'm doing!