Plain Old Gas ( POG )

[MMiskoe]

3. Must meet all existing SCCA fuel regulations for the class.
4. Must not contain additives.

How do you deal with alcohol enriched fuels that you get at the pump? They don't pass SCCA standards. Just curious

I think what you're up to is good, but its pretty hard to enforce. Some of the really exotic stuff will pass the current testing while some POG's will not.

Short of a 'pump around' (everyone pumps out half their tank and hands it to the next guy who dumps it in his tank) I'm not sure how you do address it.

[shwah]

Hence the gentleman's agreement aspect.

I run 100 unleaded for just a little more comfort that I won't blow things up if something becomes not right in the fueling or igntion. Would that qualify as POG? I buy it at the local gas station pump.

[77ITA]

First and foremost:

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Tom e-mailed me tonight and mentioned that there are already IT racers trying to sign up over at plainoldgas.com - Do no do this yet... If/when the time comes, you will get the stickers from me :cool:

Greg,

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG. It's certainly up for discussion and I appreciate your input.

MMiskoe,
There is no enforcement. This is a proposed gentleman's agreement, not a rule and the specifications about what type of fuel is adequate as written. Yes it could be torn apart and we could argue semantics about fuel like we do with every other IT rule, but that's not what this is about at all.

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

[joeg]

$36.00 per gallon is likely going to be the price of POG in the not to distant future...

[shwah]

First and foremost:

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

OK. I buy mine from the local gas station pump, it's just Sunoco 100 unleaded. I'm not trying to nit pick details, I just wouldn't want to run the sticker unless what I am doing is consedered within the spirit of the agreement.

[lateapex911]

Yea, for this to work in the IT world, where high(er) compression engines are more common, (ITC=10.5, > ITR=11.5), guys like Chris, who is buying "safety" gas...need to be covered. Limiting it to "at the track" (or the same as at the track, by that do you mean exact manufacturer, etc?) is adding lots of inconvenience and probably un-needed expense to the agreement.

I never buy track gas...my car runs as well on 87 unleaded as it does on anything else. Somebody, please educate me as to what is typically available at the track, and, to take it a step further, what is the difference between those options, and the AV gas tGA speaks of?

If I understand the intent of the policy correctly... (Kirk's web bots will fire off an email to him upon seeing the term "policy" used at IT.com, LOL)...it's to keep the exotic and wacko formulations out. But, that might need amending for IT vs. SM. Perhaps there could be a second tier "POG" sticker, one with a "Declaration" blank line where the owner Declares his fuel, and writes it on the line. For me, that would be "87 UL", for Greg, that would be "100 LL", and for Chris, that would be "100 UL". Thoughts?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't see this working in IT. All of this is so far from the intended 'plain ole gas' that it's not even funny.

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.

If you wanna be a POG guy, get your gas at gas stations.

Although I would be eligible for this sticker (as defined by the SM thread) I would NEVER want it to become a negative thing that guys in IT weren't doing it. Like Greg said, piece of mind costs little in the long run. It's why I change my fliuds after every race and hubs, rotors and pads mid-year. Needed? Probably not but what is happening here is an attempt to legislate cost........

Now if I was a guy who knew of a car that spewed fumes so bad that I got sick or my eyes watered, I would have a talk with that person for sure. Safety is a seperate issue in my eyes.

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

[shwah]

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.

100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consum...T100Locations/

[77ITA]

thanks for the great replies and conversation so far... this is the exact type of feedback I was looking for.

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

I realize that IT is much different than SM and that some people need higher octane fuel, but I doubt there are any IT cars the require better smelling gas than what is available at your average track or retail pump.

I realize that there are a lot of "what-ifs" and POG lacks the fine detail and definition of a rule, but that's just the way it should be.

It's obvious what the spirit of POG is and it's up to each individual to decide if it's in-line with their philosophy and if they want to participate. I feel very strongly about not making any adjustments to the definition of POG and feel that it would fit into IT just fine.

[dickita15]

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

I think this a great idea for SM but I don’t think it is about enforcement, it is about trying to change the culture.

[Greg Amy]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG.

Then, unfortunately, I cannot support the "POG" initiative. I agree with it in concept, but disagree with its implementation. Gasoline is gasoline (and, in fact, avgas is far more stable and consistent than any other world-wide...and ASTM-certified and -tested).

I suggest the initiative is better suited for stock-engined, stock-ecu'd classes such as Spec Miata (hah!) and Showroom Stock (?) but not for classes that allow internal engine modifications and modded ECUs. While I may not (probably don't) "need" higher-octane fuels, I'll never run street gas again; I've burned up too many engines in testing and development to skimp on a few dollars per gallon in fuels... - GA

[gsbaker]

...and ASTM-certified and -tested...

What?! I think all gas should be SFI certified.

[gsbaker]

I have heard that in the karting world, especially among the youngsters, all the tanks get drained into a common container and then refilled from that container, so everyone burns the same fuel mix.

[chuck baader]

I have even read most of the statements on this thread, and I have one major problem with running the exotic fuels....they obviously precipitate oxygen during the combustion process! All IT motors I know of are limited by the intake....that is, only so much oxygen can be introduced to combustion chamber...that is what limits horse power. If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

[keycom]

I have yet to find an airport (small or otherwise) in my area that will sell me avgas. They require it to be put directly into an airplane.

[wcmcarlos]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

[Ron Earp]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Not sure that has a lot to do with the fuel, at least not all the time it doesn't. It might have more to do with how much unburned fuel is being expelled.

My Z runs POS and it will absolutely make your eyes water if you are within 10 feet of it at idle. It has almost made me pass out loading it onto an enclosed trailer without proper ventilation. One reason I don't sit on the grid and idle.

[Parrish57]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Carlos.... Thanks for volunteering to make all of this possible!!! One of the worst offenders I've experienced on the grid is the RX7. Not throwing darts, it's just a matter of unburned fuel. My understanding of rotories is that they are the LEAST likely to use exotic fuels. 87 octane is the flavor of choice for them......

[JeffYoung]

TR8 runs on nuclear power. Things that make you go boom, boom, things that make you go boom, boom.

For me, if the "stuff" passes whatever fuel test there is, then what it costs or what's in it is irrelevant. Does the GCR specifically BAN additives in fuel or does it simply say the gas must pass x.y.z tests? If the latter, well, then what's in it matters not.

P.S. I am a Plain Old Gasser, who usually gets beat by Mr. Parrish although I now know his secret. I'm switching up his fuel jugs with mine before the next race.

[Parrish57]

TR8 runs on nuclear power. Things that make you go boom, boom, things that make you go boom, boom.

P.S. I am a Plain Old Gasser, who usually gets beat by Mr. Parrish although I now know his secret. I'm switching up his fuel jugs with mine before the next race.

Careful!!!!! My Plutonium 239 and your Uranium 235 are not compatible!

Do I really have to repost the GCR fuel rules???