Philosophical question

[Bill Miller]

What do people think about someone who advertises / sells a car as a 'legal' IT car and it turns out to be far from that? I know that the buyer should look the car over pretty well, and if they're not well versed in the particular make/model that they should find a 3rd party that is, but what should be done about someone that knowingly sells a car that has illegal parts? Should they be 'outed'?

Discuss

[mbuskuhl]

.... knowingly sells a car that has illegal parts? Should they be 'outed'?

Discuss

Representing a car as legal, when the seller has knowledge otherwise, and does not disclose such, is fraudulent. It's intentional deception, and depending on the level of severity should be outed. Missing washer bottler and claimed as a "legal" car? - Not a huge deal. Lightweight flywheel and ported heads? - Out them as a crook. If they used the [performance enhancing] parts during a race and were cheating, and another competitor knew, they would be outed, right?

The problem is the seller may not know the car has illegal parts and in fact truly does believe it to be legal. In that case, the seller has acted in good faith and made an honest mistake. The mistake should be politely pointed out to them so they can make the necessary changes either to the car, or description of item for sale.

Before they were "outed" it should be documented they know of the illegal parts, and the illegal parts should be clearly illegal. I've seen people called out on here with cars for sale, but in those cases the seller actually had listed the illegal part in the description, probably out of ignorance of the rules.

The buyer has the responsibility to make sure the car they bring to the race is legal and should not solely rely upon the sellers representations.

[BlueStreak]

If someone knowingly sells me a vehicle with illegal parts without disclosing said parts, everyone who will listen will hear about it from me - frequented forums included, but only after I have given them the opportunity to "make it right" and they have failed to do so.

As for the new owner's, this is a tough one. Although it is the competitors responsibility to know that what he has brought to the track is legal, it's unrealistic to expect him to do a full tear down on his newly acquired used race car.

[joeg]

It triggers a good laugh, especially when some of the advertised parts and features are blatantly illegal.

Caveat Emptor...

[lateapex911]

And man, NOTHING pisses off a seller as when you question things like the phrase "Won division championship in ITS two years in a row," then later in the ad lists things like "Short shifter, lightened flywheel" and the picture shows a headlight cover that had a cold air/ram inlet in it's place. Man did I get some HATE mail on that post, complete with name calling and character assassination, LOL

[shwah]

A fellow competitor here bought a car several years ago that was represented as legal. He overheated it once, and when he pulled the head, found a cam so big the head was clearanced for the lobes.

Blatant, and dishonest. I would out them.

[dick elliott]

I can not beleave a cam that big, would not sound that "BIG". But then its SCCA and many don't know a big cam from a hole in the ground.

[wepsbee]

And man, NOTHING pisses off a seller as when you question things like the phrase "Won division championship in ITS two years in a row," then later in the ad lists things like "Short shifter, lightened flywheel" and the picture shows a headlight cover that had a cold air/ram inlet in it's place. Man did I get some HATE mail on that post, complete with name calling and character assassination, LOL

Does this mean short shifters are not allowed in ITA. The only thing I found concerning shifters was that you are allowed to bend the shifter above the floor. Nothing about replacing it?

[lateapex911]

Remember, the IT rules are based on "allowances" ...if it's not allowed, it aint allowed. (If It Doesn't Say You Can, You Can't = IIDCYCYC

So, no short shifters allowed, only bending.

[wepsbee]

Thanks, appreciate the info.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If I bought a car from the 'builder' and something was grossly misrepresented, I suppose I wouldn't have any problem telling anyone the story should thetopic come up. I don't know how I feel about publically outing them in a proactive fashion.

That being said, I guess it would depend on how severe the cheat was. That cam thing blows my mind.

[spnkzss]

I agree that publicly outing someone may not be the best way. I understand that everyone HAS to know if THEIR car is legal or not. Their are quite a few people that basically own the car, but arrive and drive. They don't do their own work, don't know how to do their own work and rely on people. Those people may not be as reliable as the driver/owner knows. It may even be more simple than that and someone knows how to do everything except build a motor. They send it off and say I want to top notch legal winning motor. The get a top notch winning motor and there is something a miss that they don't know. Just think back to all the "Pro Built" Spec Miata motors that were torn down and "funny" things were found.

I'm not making an excuse for someones legality. They should be held accountable, but don't publicly out them unless you know it was malicious. Now outing the "company" that built that "legal top notch winning motor"........

[Greg Amy]

I agree that publicly outing someone may not be the best way.

Not a direct attack on you, but I suggest this mindset is a very close cousin to the one where folks are loathe to protest (possibly fear of peer disapproval?)

Cheating is cheating. Intended or not.

[benspeed]

We must have a zero tolerance of cheating and hang out the chumps who do it. Any softening of zero tolerance is weak.

My opinion is that nobody cheats because those who do will be villified, ostracized and receive a proctology examination the next time they show up at the track.

[jjjanos]

If I bought a car from the 'builder' and something was grossly misrepresented, I suppose I wouldn't have any problem telling anyone the story should thetopic come up..... That cam thing blows my mind.

Heck, if I bought a car from the builder and something was as grossly misrepresented as the cam thing, I'd haul his arse into small claims court.

If the seller built the motor - either personally or paid for it - he knew what was in there. If he didn't build the motor and has no idea whether it is legal, then he's got no business claiming the engine is legal.

Is this engine IT legal?

Note the differences:
A. Darn straight! 100% legal.
B. The guy I bought it from told me it was and I have no reason to believe otherwise.
C. I have no idea. This was the motor that was in the car when I bought it.

[jjjanos]

I agree that publicly outing someone may not be the best way. I understand that everyone HAS to know if THEIR car is legal or not. Their are quite a few people that basically own the car, but arrive and drive. They don't do their own work, don't know how to do their own work and rely on people. Those people may not be as reliable as the driver/owner knows. It may even be more simple than that and someone knows how to do everything except build a motor. They send it off and say I want to top notch legal winning motor. The get a top notch winning motor and there is something a miss that they don't know. Just think back to all the "Pro Built" Spec Miata motors that were torn down and "funny" things were found.

I agree that thing to do in this instance is outting the builder/prep shop. If I pay Solarsuspenders Engines to build an IT legal motor, the official responsibility rests with me, but the moral responsibility rests with them. I'm the one who will be DQ'd and pay the fine.

Outting the guy who thought he had a legal piece of equipment won't serve the community. The poor guy who goes to Solarsuspenders will be left in the dark. The poor guy who bought the sister engine/car to the one that turned out to be illegal is left in the dark (and could face severe punishment if discovered post-race) and everybody who is considering buying from that prep shop is left in the dark.

[gran racing]

They send it off and say I want to top notch legal winning motor.

There are things people can do to help ensure it's legal though. For example, purchase and provide the engine builder the pistons and cam to be used. Put it in writing that the engine has to be legal even if it's simply in an e-mail to them. Be upfront by telling them the engine will be torn apart at some point in time to ensure legality.

You might not ever be able to be 100% sure, but you can take huge strides in that direction.

[zchris]

Well it happens all the time that an engine builder or chassis builder gets caught, stretching the rules. That is part of building cutting edge. 7 or 8 years ago the top 4 cars AS cars had brand x engine at the runoffs and were found illegal at the Runoffs. The owners/drivers had no knowledge of the illegality. Didn't Sunbelt have a whole series of SpecMiata engines with illegal cams. As long as there are rules, there will be builders looking for loopholes. Don't get so worked up poeple. You guys sound like another witch hunt is a brewing. Take a deep breath and go work on your cars.
Chris Howard

[RacerBill]

There are things people can do to help ensure it's legal though. For example, purchase and provide the engine builder the pistons and cam to be used. Put it in writing that the engine has to be legal even if it's simply in an e-mail to them. Be upfront by telling them the engine will be torn apart at some point in time to ensure legality.

You might not ever be able to be 100% sure, but you can take huge strides in that direction.

Make sure that your engine builder understands what the limitations of the class are. He may be an expert on Prod or GT engines and not IT prep.

[gran racing]

Don't get so worked up poeple. You guys sound like another witch hunt is a brewing.

Worked up or interested in having a level paying field? We spend a significant amount of time and money prepping our cars, I don't think it's unreasonable to be proactive with insuring other people are not taking short cuts. Heck, people could easily skip the $3 - 5K+ engine builds and simply throw a set of cams in for the same gains. I know that was suggested to me among other things when first looking into an engine build.