Stewards and/or drivers taking action???

[RSTPerformance]

I have seen so many comments for years about how Stewards need to do more to prevent contact and/or drivers need to do more to self-police drivers... so lets discuss different ideas to make racing more enjoyable for all...

First you need to know that Stewards come from all areas, some have never raced, some raced, some still race, some flaged, some still flagged, some political and some I just have no idea where they came from or what planet they are on. But I have to admit they are all good people willing to voluneer their time to do the best they can to run a fun event for the region and all the participents. They will not please everyone because we (including them) all have different experiences and knowledge that gives us different opinions, views, requests, etc.

Here is one thing that I do to try and do my best... I was at a smaller race in Ohio a few years ago (not the IT Fest or the Runoffs) and I noticed that every driver that was witnessed having an on-track incident (both sides) was called into pit lane after the race and spoken to by the Black flag Steward. The reactions and information gathered from the quick interview were relayed to the tower where the Operating Stewards were. They then made a decision to file a RFA or not.

I very much liked this process and have since adopted it here in the Northeast for EVERY class/group that I am the Operating Steward for. Sometimes I even went and personally spoke to drivers I wanted more info from. Generally those drivers gave little or no respect no matter what side they were on (recieving or offending).

When I was in Ohio I thought this process worked to at least intimidate contact, Has anyone experience this... did it help? Do you think it would help if you never experienced it?

Problems that stewards have... All the officials and flaggers would love to see everything but we don't and not all contact is called in. When it is not called in their is nothing that any of us can do.

As a driver, I have always tried to have video as a witness, and a Steward I can't thank drivers with video enough for having it. I noticed in the latest sportcar that the Speed series now requires it in the rules... Interesting...

I had a problem with the process and the politics while racing down south and decided to become a Steward to understand the "other side" better. Why are you not a Steward?

If you were a Steward, how would you address this popular issue?

If you are are a Driver and you were "wronged" why didn't you protest?

If you are a driver and witnessed someone "wronged" why didn't you protest?

Thanks to all those that give input... we have a Stewards training class in a few weeks and any ideas generated I will bring to the meeting to share with other Stewards that might not view this website.

Raymond "see you at the track soon!!!" Blethen

[Tkczecheredflag]

Raymond - Call me ignorant, but my inclination is to assume people are "good by nature" and "nurtured to badness". You don't always know who has been nurtured to badness because you don't always know who you are racing with, whether it be with a new run gruop or a new driver in your class. Add to the mix that not everyone knows the "protest" process, protocol, guidelines, and requirements - Be that because they haven't reviewed their GCR recently or at all. Officals have to decide how proactive they want to be and need to be in the process.

I have had two personnel experiences that involved other drivers (as well as a couple that did not involve another driver-ouch), and I was on the recieving end of those incidents - one that cost me a race caused by a driver in another class but minimal damage to the car, and another that cost me a "ton of cabbage" (Happy St Patrick's Day everyone). The first incident I wasn't totally convicned I was right or wrong until I saw tha video from another driver a few days laterthat clearly showed I left the driver a lot of room to work his magic on the pass. The other incident, although a bit bone headed, left a couple of drivers pointing at each other and not wanting to own their piece of the puzzle (a lot of good cars got wrecked good - my recollection is 6 cars never made it to T-1 on L-1).

So, if there is an incident pull everyone in on the carpet and talk it through. Collect the Corner Workers reports, grab the available video, and see if what people are saying is what people are doing. Let all people know what their options are, dismiss the innocent bystanders, and have a heart to heart with the appropriate drivers. I might suggest the implementation as a "Incident Steward" to act as an advisor to the other Officials. I am suggesting a more proactive approach as you have described in your post.

I realize that their is/are contact and wrecks in racing - But incidents should be "accident" not by "stratgegy, intent, retaliation, or design". The logistics might be difficult - but we are in the discussion phase which I think is wonderful.

[JohnRW]

Off on a slight tangent here:

Some drivers...and some officials...have the idea that, without video proof, a protest will get nowhere. Is "video" the only acceptable standard of proof now ? I raised this with a panel of stewards and officials recently (well...Saturday, actually), because I've heard comments like this in the past few years. As both a driver and a Steward, I'd never believed that, and I want to point out to driver and officials that witness statements and rational presentation of evidence (physical, like body damage; written, by witnesses; etc) is as important (or more important) than video.

When I raised this issue on Saturday, all in the room agreed that "video" isn't necessary for a successful protest or action. Some had also heard rumblings of the "a protest isn't worth jack without video" feelings. In the end, a well-founded protest doesn't need video, and if someone tells you that it does, you need to refute that and let them know that "higher powers" don't agree with that position.

[shwah]

The most significant non-bumper to bumper contact that I have had was an 'incidental' at Road America (in qualifying no less) when I pulled out to pass two cars that had been slow in front of me for 2 corners and 2 straights. I waited until after the 2nd corner, as this was qualifying and I didn't want to risk contact by dropping under someone. Unfortunately the car in front of me was doing the same thing, and pulled out just as my RF wheel got to the front edge of his door. We had a bit of side to side contact, it took him a moment to realize what what was happening - just after I had 2 in the grass.

When the session was over, the BFS did exactly what you described - although they just asked us to come back and talk to them rather than doing it when we were in the car. I really liked the way they handled that. Of course it works best if people show some respect to the official, the competitor and the rules in these conversations/events.

[zchris]

Raymond, glad you opened the door about why poeple do not bother with protests. As you may remember you sat in on a protest of mine at WG a couple years back. Someone, that I will not bother naming, drove into the back of me going into the braking zone before the busstop. Pure reckless driving. When I filed the protest, I was made to feel that I was being a nusance to the stewards. And my protest after being heard was summarilly dismissed as a "racing incident". It should be noted that I was hit prior to the braking zone before brake application. It was first lap of the race and I was driving a car that was 5 seconds a lap faster than the offender. The only thing the stewards wanted was to go home. We were the last race group. When I hear a stewards voice now say much of anything you know what I think. Nothing. What they say means little. They have, all by themselves, marginalized there existence. You are right, there are all nice poeple. But if your not willing to do the job, hang up the hat. The club does not need bench warmers. I think I will have to volunteer now. Thanks for opening this door Raymond. See you at the races.

[spnkzss]

I have to say that it can be quite difficult at times to speak with the Stewards, and have had to work on that myself. First thing is to calm down before I go up there. The only problem with that is the 30min rule.

The last time I was up there I got a little upset because I was called up, I was reprimanded (slap on the wrist) then told I could leave. All before I got to tell my side of the story because the other driver got there first. I had fully planned on going to the other driver before I was called up, but got called up first. Either way, the last thing I said before I left was, "ok, can I now explain my side of the story". She looked shocked that there might be a chance that she didn't have the story straight. Either way, the end came out that she asked if I wanted to protest, I said no, I will talk with the individual, I did, and everything seemed ok.

I always want to go talk with the individual first, if that doesn't work then I go to the stewards, and I will NEVER go up there again without video.

[dave parker]

Raymond
Here are my answers:
Why are you not a Steward?
ANSWER- Over the last four years I have gotten to know several Stewards personally, they have helped me to understand the who,what,where, why and HOW of the process. I think that this helped the race weekend that I was protested by a fellow competitor for contact and was found guilty by the SOM. That was when the CSOM hung the label "Dangerous Dave" on me. The SOM refused to watch my video, refused to look at the physical damage on my car, and accepted, but put no stock in the witness statement that another competitor filled out in my defense, all of which showed that I was the victim not perpetraitor.
I later beat them in the National Court of Appeals, but only because I took the time to do it. Plus I found someone following us during the incident with some pretty daming video.
I am not a Steward because I am unwilling to get out of the racecar for the two year commitment to the program. Besides my region (DC Region) has plenty of Stewards.

If you were a Steward, how would you address this popular issue?
ANSWER- The GCR says contact is prohibited. If there is contact the Stewards need to be proactive about it. Many times it is a "racing incident" but if you have to go to the tower everytime it happens I bet there would be less "racing incidents". I also understand that the Stewards don't want to go "look" for trouble, but looking the other way while drivers violate the GCR is wrong too. Bottom line is that overly aggressive driving and boneheadedness need to be addressed. I think that the best penalty would be to send people home without allowing them to race. We have all seen that "probation" penalties do not work.

If you are are a Driver and you were "wronged" why didn't you protest?
ANSWER- I usually try to go CALMLY talk to the other driver right away. I try to get their insight on what happened, what led up to the incident, and what could we have done differently. Several times I realized that I was wrong and they were not. I also try not to let things get confrontational. If the situation starts to go bad that is when it is time to let the Stewards figure it out. One must also consider that we all have to race together and that allowing a guy a easy recovery is sometimes not a bad thing to do. We all make mistakes. But ultimately the other drivers attitude will determine how I am going act, or not act.
Saying "I am sorry" and meaning it, is tough but it can go a long way as well. Another thing to take into consideration is that sometimes drivers suffer from "shell shock" after an incident (be it crashing hard or seeing your racecar "wadded up") and are not really "lucid" (although they seem to be). Thirty minutes (protest filing time) can go by really quick when a driver is in this situation.

If you are a driver and witnessed someone "wronged" why didn't you protest?
ANSWER- I have protested a driver who wronged someone else. It is a very difficult situation. You will find that you have less friends in the paddock (and on the track) when you start trying to play "policeman".
I also found that the Stewards were not terribly cooperative in helping with this (they were looking for the "hidden agenda") and outright discouraged the filing of the protest.

My opinion and worth exactly what it cost you, nothing.

cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion

[gran racing]

When I filed the protest, I was made to feel that I was being a nusance to the stewards.

I approached the stewards at Lime Rock in '06 about a move that caused unnecessary contact, and was a pass that forced his way into first place. It caused me to go off the track and lets just say I was not at all pleased with things. I cooled off a bit and went to file a protest after speaking with the driver. The stewards did everything they could to convince me out of it, which initially made sense. Later in the discussion things got a bit frustrating with some of the reasons I shouldn't. They even used the "you do understand there's a protest fee" as one of them. Ohhh, that put me over the edge and I proptly wrote a check and handed it to them with a here's your f-n check. Eventually they convinced me out of it and at least spoke with the other driver. At that point I think I was too frustrated with the whole situation.

From this experience, my attitude changed including some of my driving style. I certainly do not condone contact (well, unless it's bump drafting Ray at Mid Ohio during qualifying - ooops, a little harder than I meant LOL), but won't stress about making my car too pretty. Essentially I felt like it is necessary to self-police things and I adopted a "I'll race you like you race me" mentality.

But ultimately the other drivers attitude will determine how I am going act, or not act.

I absolutely agree. I got t-boned in NHIS by a dumass move, and when I spoke with the driver he said "that a really dumb move, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm really sorry." That was the end of it although I do still shake my head when seeing that car.

While it shouldn't be necessary, I do think video is a fantastic way for drivers to cover themselves and it really saved me once.

[lateapex911]

John brings up good points...forensic evidence can indeed be damning. But....the combination of forensic and video can be even better. For the amount we spend racing, it behooves us to spend a small percentage more for video. It cant hurt.....and while some people can remember things in a military "maintain the strain" manner, others will completely convince themselves...to the point they really really think they are perfect...and testify in a way that only serves to confuse. Those who resist such twists of truth look at them and think they are intentionally misleading, but, in fact, they know no better.

One thing that needs to be addressed in the early stages, (school) is the protest process, and we need to pound into new recruits heads that this society is one that self polices. For it to operate correctly, you must do your job.

Stewards are there to decide conflicts....but to get that call, you must file papers. This is true in on track incidents as well as technical infractions. Just like life, we are responsible for our world. Don't accept "Are you sure you want to??" from a steward. Know your rights, know the rulebook...and insist that you are treated fairly. if you don't, you can thank yourself.

Stewards are human...it's up to you to make sure they serve you.

I will admit though, that the failings can be enough to enrage you. And while it should never get to this point, you can appeal the actions and run the matter up the flagpole. Even Stewards have bosses.

In terms of proactive actions, by all means, I think that's a path worth pursuing. But, Stewards need to do it in a manner that is non threatening. You get more bees with honey than vinegar, and there's little point in intimidating innocent parties.

Finally, I know there are Stewards who are charged with being the "Drivers Rep". I think it's important that those Stewards are beyond reproach, and advocate drivers positions first. I even think that they shouldn't be called Stewards...perhaps another title is better suited, such as "Drivers Counsel".

[jjjanos]

Stewards are there to decide conflicts....but to get that call, you must file papers. This is true in on track incidents as well as technical infractions. Just like life, we are responsible for our world. Don't accept "Are you sure you want to??" from a steward. Know your rights, know the rulebook...and insist that you are treated fairly. if you don't, you can thank yourself.

Some stewards are there to decide conflicts, the SoMs and serve in the judicial role.
Some, however, are enforcement - Chief, Assitant Chief and Operating - and serve in the role of law enforcement, i.e. sending the perps to the judges.

I think too often we expect the second type to always intervene and when they do not, we, as drivers, need to exercise our responsibility and rights.

Stewards are human...

I'm going to need statistical evidence to back that claim.

On a side note, does it bother anyone other than me that a driver who appeals a court and wins, still has to pay the cost of that appeal? I personally know of one appeal where the original Court violated the rules by creating a non-GCR compliant punishment, overturned on appeal, and the fellow who filed the appeal still had to pay for the cost of duplicating the video, mailing it out and the conference call...

Shouldn't either the Club or the hosting Region eat the cost of the appeal if "it" loses on procedural ground?

[pgipson]

The one time I felt I was "wronged" on the race track, I got hit on the LR wheel in a corner by someone that was 5 car lengths behind when I entered the corner. After limping my car to tech (I had a bent axle housing) I asked the steward if anyone saw what happened. No, all eyes were somewhere else.

I ranted and fumed and kicked by myself for a few minutes and the steward asked if I wanted to protest. I took a deep breath and filed my first (and only) protest. The steward walked me through the process, made a GCR available, and generally helped me understand what would matter and what wouldn't. I talked to the SOMs, explained my side and what I felt had happened (no video). The other guy did the same, and he admitted that he was too hot and used me as a deflector shield.

He offered to pay all damages if I would drop the protest. I said no. It wasn't a question of money. If I couldn't afford the damage I wouldn't have been out there. This was a guy that a rep for being over his head, and taking risks with other peoples cars (and safety). I felt that the protest was the right thing and hoped the SOMs would see it my way.

They did, and gave him a 6 race probation. I think he's a better driver now and that the protest process did what I hoped it would.

[Racerlinn]

Here is one thing that I do to try and do my best... I was at a smaller race in Ohio a few years ago (not the IT Fest or the Runoffs) and I noticed that every driver that was witnessed having an on-track incident (both sides) was called into pit lane after the race and spoken to by the Black flag Steward. The reactions and information gathered from the quick interview were relayed to the tower where the Operating Stewards were. They then made a decision to file a RFA or not.

I very much liked this process and have since adopted it here in the Northeast for EVERY class/group that I am the Operating Steward for. Sometimes I even went and personally spoke to drivers I wanted more info from. Generally those drivers gave little or no respect no matter what side they were on (recieving or offending).

When I was in Ohio I thought this process worked to at least intimidate contact, Has anyone experience this... did it help? Do you think it would help if you never experienced it?

Raymond "see you at the track soon!!!" Blethen

Having worked pit-out at IRP (ORP) for several years, I worked with the black-flag stewards often to stop cars after sessions so that they could have conversations regarding on-track incidents. I always assummed this was the norm until I started racing and discovered it was not. I got a majorly punted at St. Louis by another car in front of a corner station and fully expected that I would be having a conversation at the end of the race. When I pulled in, there was nobody there to talk with me on pit road about the incident.
But on the other side of it, I had an close call where I missed a mid-corner shift at an ORP race and the car behind me made an excellent move to miss hitting me. It turned out that it must have been very close as the corner workers called it in as contact. After the race, we both got stopped at the end of pit road for a talk with a steward. He talked with both of us, looked at both cars (no paint or damage), and was then happy to let us go.
Yes, all on-track incidents witnessed should require a quick visit on pit-road from the black flag steward.

[dave parker]

Shouldn't either the Club or the hosting Region eat the cost of the appeal if "it" loses on procedural ground?

Jeff
Yes I believe that it should. But I can guarantee you that the Region's leadership (any region not just our own WDC Region) and
the National office would balk at the suggestion.
Remember the Appeals process is a money making venture for the National office. I can tell you that the cost to me to appeal the SOM ruling was $180.00 ($25.00 initial protest fee,$125.00 appeal fee, $20.00 overnight shipping, $10.00 in gas to go get the other persons video). I got a check from the National office for $75.00 along with the document stating that the ruling against me had been overturned (that document is priceless in my eyes, I even framed it).I am sure that they make it expensive on purpose to avoid having to deal with a flood of appeals.

I think that you will have better luck tilting at windmills.
cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks everyone for your input! Hopefully this season brings us the best racing yet... I will do my best to help in that cause... Feel free anytime to "track" me down and let me know if anything about the weekend is bothering you and I will do my best to help.

Raymond