Question for all ITC drivers

[StephF]

I think many people make a big mistake in categorizing a whole class based on a few drivers. If a 10 car field has 1 or 2 questionable moves, then a 30 car SM field will have 3-4 questionable moves. It's a simple math thing - when you add to that some of the factors Lawton correctly points out, the dynamics are slightly different - not to say acceptable - but different.

And I don't thing ANYONE said what happened to Tim is ok. Not at all.

Split starts for 2-3 ITC cars? No way. I am no expert on SS, but I am betting a little more space is needed in order to pull them off safely and consistantly than the 1.5 mile tracks were run on. Plus, think about the start proceedure at NHIS...

Tim, I bet there is someone on here that will dispute that SRF drivers never had issues. They most certainly have. Heck, the biggest field of FV's I have ever seen was at the NARRC Runoffs this past year...I counted 4 TOTALLED cars and 2 more damaged before their run group was over. Numbers count for something.

Having said all that, I must repeat myself. Serge has spearheaded a groundswell to self-police the SM and SSM groups. It seemed to have worked well last year other than a few freak acidents that weren't attributed to any 'copboy' antics.

The size of ITC being what it is, I think it could float into the ITA, IT7, SSB, SSC, T3 NARRC group if you HONESTLY think the SM grouping is keeping cars away. Send a note to the committee. Let's all be part of the solution.

#1: See second sentence in my previous post.
#2: Re; split start: Dave Parker said this:

Ed
Yes, the 2005 class grouping of SRX7 and ITC caused me to leave ITC and go to H Production for the 2006 season.
Lots of reasons, but mostly I got tired of idiots beating up my racecar and the Stewards doing nothing about it.
Apparently the same class grouping was alot better in 2006, but I attribute that to the efforts of the drivers rep (John Burkhard) lobbying the Stewards for a "split grid" start and some familiarity of the drivers in the two classes having run together for a year.
For the most part I have found that the DC Region Production guys do not want to hit each other.
cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion
__________________
"Ignore All Confrontations With Common Sense."

Sounds like it is working there. Why not here?

#3: Re. self policing. I certainly hope this is true, but I will believe it when I see it. You see, we missed most of last season (as you pointed out to Ed earlier) You remember why?
Mmmm....Yeah that's right. It was because we had to spend the bulk of last season fixing damage coused by a really STUPID move by a driver in another class at LRP. This driver made a kamikazee move that took out our car, and the 3 top cars running in C that day.

One of them permanently.

John vanDenburgh wrote:
Hey all,

I have been reading this with great interest...and I have been trying not to toss "my 2 cents" in. I dont know how many of you have been in both worlds, ( SM & ITC ) . With my many, ,many , many thanks to my friend Rick, for letting me borrow his car !

I have, in on race weekend, drove my ITC car and a SM , in back to back classes. They are completely different animals as one might expect.
But the thing I have learned, and quickly, is that you want/need to be at the pointy end of the field if you dont want to do/see so highly questionable things happen. BUT with an ITC car running with SM , it puts you in the middle of the pack..Which their of have been incedents , like the one Tim described, in fact, I believe I was also hit that same race by an SM. And I need not to mention I am down one car due to some over zelous driving by an SM driver .... Again sorry Ed for that dreadfull day...
I never understood why they changed the classes up, ITA & ITC was great ! I also would of liked to see ITC run with ITB.
Would I go back into ITC ? No way , not running with SM.
Are all drivers in SM bad ?..
.....Absolutly NOT!! There are some great drivers in that class....!!
My take on it is this , If they refuse to move ITC out of SM... ITC in the N.E will die out....
plain and simple....
-John VanDenburgh

You ever try to walk into Honda and just pick up a new hatch assembly (plus all the glass) for an 80's era car? They don't exactly have the shelves stocked with them. By the time a decent donor car was found, and the car came back from having the frame straightened, it was late summer.
Am I still pissed? Yeah, I am.
You see, I don't see anyone else writing the checks for these things. We don't send out our cars to the prep shops and arrive and drive. We are two people who are both working full time, and then spending time and money out in the shop on our cars. I work shoulder to shoulder with Ed on them. And in this case, we had just gotten this car back from having a new cage put in, and having rewired everything. It was beautiful.
Second race, we have a car that's almost crumpled in an incident that was absolutely avoidable and pointless.

So tell me Andy, who exactly is in charge of the grouping?
Sometimes you say things that make it sound like ITAC is just an advisory commitee.
Then other times you make remarks like you are the decision making process.
Maybe I am a bit behind the Who's Who in NERSCCA, but somehow this decision happens. Please tell me the process used to do it.
Thank you.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Timmy, if I got that as a response after an incident that I felt was uncalled for, (and video and eye witnesses backed me up on) I'd be enraged. Really enraged, and would certainly not control my reaction as I probably should.

I would either/or, or maybe a combination of:
A- Call him all sorts of derogatory names and threaten him with bills and over the top repercusions...
B- March my pissy ass down to the tower and write up a scathing protest, complete with his quote, and eyewitness accounts of same, and find every last item on his car to throw the book at too.
C: Wait until a hot, muggy day, and follow him by a discreet distance as he uses a portapotty, then a quick wrap with duct tape and a heave ho!. followed by a "How do you like THAT contact sport, Sport?" and leave him to consider the deeper meanings of life....(that last one would probably cost me a few hundred to pay the company to do a cleanup, but it might be worth it..

What I would NOT do, is get pissed at all Miata, or SSM, or SM drivers, unless I felt they all shared that belief.,,,however, I would be forewarned.

Jake - Unfortuantely, the video proof arrived from in my e-mail box a few days after the event from a fellow racer who was a few hundred feet behind us - I am struggling to find it and post it for your review - I am still searching - If the racer who sent me the original video is following this thread- send it again please. The other suggestions and advice are duly noted - I am not "anti Miata" - people who know me, also know that I climbed in and out of several Miatas as I was considering my next step in racing - I like the car but it's tough to get my big ass inside them and equally important, out.


Steph - You rasie ALL the right issues - especially with the empahsis on safety. Drivers need to spend more time on the corners with a flag in their hand and listening to the radio, to fully understand how quickly things can get really, really bad after a wreck.

Andy - I don't claim to have the answers here, and my recollection of SRF is the best I can remember and is only one F&C Officials' recollection. Remind me, have you held a National F&C license? - I am not trying to be a smart ass but F&C holds it's own perspective and is different from a drivers perspective. I think I am feeling that if someone acted on Karl, Sr in a official capacity while he was putting cars on their roof and punting drivers, it would have set the different/right standard for others to follow that raced with him - especially when the other's "driving experience" is in question. By not doing that "we" (and I'll take my piece of the ownership here), condoned his behavior for anyone to emulate. His card should have been pulled for attitude alone. Also, I am hearing two things about "C"- cars aren't "showing up" and drivers are leaving ITC - leaving!

[lateapex911]

Steph-
Andy is on the ITAC. It's the advisory crew that makes rules for the IT category. (It's a group of 7-9 guys from around the country)

This is a regional issue, and Andy is on several regional committees. In other parts of the country, the race groupings are different.

I was confused when the groupings changed here locally as to why the C guys were dropped from the ITA group. The mix of speeds was not too close, not too far apart, it was just right. And since there are maybe 5 or 6 C cars at any event max, it seems like they could have been shoehorned in. But I wasn't there for the discussion, and other factors, like neighboring regions groupings may have played into the decision.

SMs DO regularly find themselves in racing situations where close running and aggressive passing must be done...and there are more of them, so the sheer numbers will drive up incident counts, but...look at the front of the SM and SSM packs...guys like Payson and Leverone don't seem to get the cars all dinged up...at least to my unscrupulous eye.

So I don't count the "class" responsible, but, if Timmy is correct in his allegations (and I have no reason to doubt him) there are certainly attitude problems, and those are the most serious. If I was told that I wasn't at fault for contact, yet I didn't deserve an apology, that I'd better get used to it because "That's the way it is..." I'd be ripped!

(This from a guy who ended up being the meat of a three car sandwich, which resulted in two of us visiting Armco and damaging the cars too greatly to race. While I wasn't directly at fault, I offered to work on the guys car who I was bumped into and do whatever I could to get the car on the track for the race. He declined, and I was lucky enough to have friends dive in and offer parts to put my car back together. Since I had a couple busted ribs from the hit, that was a HUGE help. Made the race, started 67th, finished 23rd in 7 laps, and didn't touch a single molecule of anyone else's car in the process. To me that's the way the SCCA should work. We all occasionally have it go wrong, and we all pitch in to get whoever needs the help going again.)

[dickita15]

Tim there absolutely was a problem in the early days of Spec Racer. We called the Spec Rambo. Ask Steph about the old cartoon with the spec racer with a 50 caliber mounted on the back. As regional fields thinned out the problem lessened.
Andy, dude, sorry if you don’t see it but there is an attitude issue with a large group of the SM and SSM drivers. There is a sense of entitlement that is very unattractive. For many their loyalty is not to SCCA or even Mazda but to SM.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim there absolutely was a problem in the early days of Spec Racer. We called the Spec Rambo. Ask Steph about the old cartoon with the spec racer with a 50 caliber mounted on the back. As regional fields thinned out the problem lessened.
Andy, dude, sorry if you don’t see it but there is an attitude issue with a large group of the SM and SSM drivers. There is a sense of entitlement that is very unattractive. For many their loyalty is not to SCCA or even Mazda but to SM.

Dick - Maybe that's the answer - let the herd thin themself out (okay I don't really mean that). To your point though - the car and the class are the same - it's hard to separate one from the other - doesn't mean I/we are anti - Miata - but it is what it is. We know that ALL Miata drivers and not the problem but for those that are the problem - well, what did my mom say - "show me your company and I'll tell you what you are", - it's a lot about perception - I think I see what I see and therefore it is, and sometimes that is offensive to the "not guilty." If it's that offensive - fix it - or own, the choice is their's.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Steph,

I submit split starts aren't worth the risk for 2 ITC cars. I also submit that on the small tracks we run on, it may be an even worse idea. I read the original post and since Dave is a DC guy, I bet he is talking about Summit Point. Like I said, I am no expert on SS's but from what I have seen, there needs to be a pretty big reason to do them.

I understand you are pissed about your car. I understand it wasn't your fault. I also bet you understand the risks you take every time you hit the track. But understand that steps have been made to improve the situation. I am trying to tell you about them.

I have given you the name of the comp chair. I have suggested that you contact them. If they thought they were losing a couple members because of a grouping issue, they might try and work something out. Have you expressed your displeasure in an official capacity yet? What was the official response? Unwilling to help out? A 'wait and see'? Let us all know.

I am interested in solutions. My biggest pet-peave is bickering about an issue when nothing has been officially asked of anyone or presented as a problem for someone to try and solve. Taking your ball and going home isn't my style.

As Jake said, the ITAC and NER have nothing to do with each other. If you have an issue, contact Serge or Jerry. They would be happy to put you and your issue/solution on an agenda at the next meeting.

Tim,

Told you so!

Dick,

What can we do to fix that attitude problem? It's BS. When we are on track, we are all equal if we are aware of what is going on and we are sensitive to the situations other drivers are in. Task me with the situation and I will do my best in any capacity you want. Bad Cop? You bet.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim, I bet there is someone on here that will dispute that SRF drivers never had issues.

Andy - If this is the "I told you so" - then you and Dick are helping to make my point - It's hard ot separate the class (SSM) and the car (Miata). - I'm not "anti anything".

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim there absolutely was a problem in the early days of Spec Racer. We called the Spec Rambo. Ask Steph about the old cartoon with the spec racer with a 50 caliber mounted on the back. As regional fields thinned out the problem lessened.
Andy, dude, sorry if you don’t see it but there is an attitude issue with a large group of the SM and SSM drivers. There is a sense of entitlement that is very unattractive. For many their loyalty is not to SCCA or even Mazda but to SM.

Thanks for the clarification and the help.

[StephF]

Steph,

I submit split starts aren't worth the risk for 2 ITC cars. I also submit that on the small tracks we run on, it may be an even worse idea. I read the original post and since Dave is a DC guy, I bet he is talking about Summit Point. Like I said, I am no expert on SS's but from what I have seen, there needs to be a pretty big reason to do them.

I understand you are pissed about your car. I understand it wasn't your fault. I also bet you understand the risks you take every time you hit the track. But understand that steps have been made to improve the situation. I am trying to tell you about them.

I have given you the name of the comp chair. I have suggested that you contact them. If they thought they were losing a couple members because of a grouping issue, they might try and work something out. Have you expressed your displeasure in an official capacity yet? What was the official response? Unwilling to help out? A 'wait and see'? Let us all know.

I am interested in solutions. My biggest pet-peave is bickering about an issue when nothing has been officially asked of anyone or presented as a problem for someone to try and solve. Taking your ball and going home isn't my style.

As Jake said, the ITAC and NER have nothing to do with each other. If you have an issue, contact Serge or Jerry. They would be happy to put you and your issue/solution on an agenda at the next meeting.

Tim,

Told you so!

Dick,

What can we do to fix that attitude problem? It's BS. When we are on track, we are all equal if we are aware of what is going on and we are sensitive to the situations other drivers are in. Task me with the situation and I will do my best in any capacity you want. Bad Cop? You bet.

Andy;
Over the course of the last season, Ed & I spoke to the other drivers who were participating in ITC. They all said that they were not happy, and wanted out of the ITC/Spec Miata grouping.

Based on their input, at NHIS at the end of last year, Ed and I went to Serge and our RE from last year(whose name has just completely escaped me) and asked both of them for a change of grouping to another IT class.

We passed along the information that ALL of the drivers left in ITC had expressed support for this change.

We were under the impression after talking to both of them that it was a done deal for 2008. We were told (albiet informally) that there should be no problem switching C back to a another IT group.

OK, so so now it looks like we were also supposed to have followed it up formally by going to the meetings too.

But, based on their collective reactions, we felt that they did not find a problem with it, and thought this was going to happen. It did not.
SO...... back to the drawing board once more.

Andy, thank you for the clarification that ITAC has nothing to do with it. My bad, from all of the input you had given us concerning this, I was under the impression that it was part of the process, not a nonbinding advisary commitee.
I will not bother you with it any longer.

And, one last clarification before I once again walk away from here: I simply want to run with a group that handles in the same fashion as my car does.
That is it.
Plain and simple.
I don't care what anyone else drives.
I (we, meaning other C drivers) want a safer race grouping than what has been happening.
And we want to keep our numbers and increase them again so we can have some fun without having to always go out of region.
Period.

[grjones1]

I think the problem with grouping stems not so much from speed differenials between classes as it does with handling characteristics. ITC doesn't mix well with SM/SSm or Sp7 because the IT cars will understeer before they exhibit the tail-happiness of the mazdas. Thus things go awry when the groups attempt to share a corner.

Things went better at Summit Point not so much because of split starts but when ITC was grouped with ITB where it belongs. Because B and C pretty much use the same basic techniques, drivers know what to expect from the cars around them.

If the competition committees would confer with the drivers before they establish groups, they would get a better idea of what cars play better together. This is not meant to be pejorative of the committees; they have much to consider: numbers, race schedule, etc. But a primary concern must be to match classes that run more safely together. Sometimes it appears that the race formatters lose sight of the basics when they are pressured by so many interests (corner worker fatigue, over-subscribed classes, and the like) but just like it's not a good idea to run open- and closed- wheel cars together or production classes with "stock" classes, sometimes other factors such as handling charateristics must be considered.

Forgive me if I belabor the obvious.

[Ed Funk]

My turn again, then I'm outta here to visit my mother in Kansas.
Andy you indicated that the SM/SSM crowd were not cowboys, maybe not, maybe it's the cowgirl that needs to be controlled. I've been forced into the weeds on more than one occassion by Shelby, when I was completely beside her! At first I thought that she suffered from major tunnel vision, but Steph has been forced over the curb twice on a pace lap both times by Shelby. This is the same Shelby that in her first race in a Prod car after being signed off the day before took herself and another car out very early in the race when she tried to take 3 at NHIS completely without regard for the car that was BESIDE her! ?Tunnel vision or over aggression? Don't know but that is one "cowgirl" that is going to hurt someone someday! How many of the wrecked SM/SSM's at the last NHIS race were secondary to her? I was spectating at the south chicane when she made a completely bone head move and took herself and another SM out.

If they have to drive that aggressively I don't want to be in their group!! Oh, I actually have a friend or two that drive SM/SSM they're good guys rarely have body damage and finish well.

Couple of side comments and then I'm headed for the airport---
This thread was titled "Question for all ITC drivers"
What the hell kind of 7 year old girl comment is "Told you so"?!? Tell Tim to f*** off or something!

[JoshS]

Andy, thank you for the clarification that ITAC has nothing to do with it. My bad, from all of the input you had given us concerning this, I was under the impression that it was part of the process, not a nonbinding advisary commitee.

Just want to be clear -- it's not because the ITAC is a non-binding advisory committee that it has nothing to do with race groupings.

The ITAC helps the CRB with the content of the GCR, nothing more. That means, what sorts of modifications can you make to your car, at what weight does it race, etc.

The ITAC and CRB are national committees.

The race groupings are not specified in any way by any national group. The SCCA staff, the CRB, and the ITAC all have absolutely zero say in it. No influence, no recommendations, no discussion at all.

Decisions about race groupings, race schedules, etc., are part of individual race administration, and that is done entirely by the regions that sanction races.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess my point Ed is that you have had multiple issues with one driver. Doesn't seem like a classes worth of issue, just a singular problem in your case. Maybe not, just reading what you wrote. Hey, there are plenty of 'cowboys' in SM for sure. Just might be a function of a few more issues than a 'Miata'. Tim's original sentiment that they are teh SCCA's darling just irked me, that's all. Every class has cowboys, it just happens that SM usually pulls in double the drivers in most classes and 10X others so there is more 'chance' for crap.

And it most certainly seems as if you guys have done your due dilligence WRT a request. I encourage you to follow up with the NER Comp board and ask to get changed. The size of ITC would seem to be very manuveable around the groups.

In this case, I am just another racer from NER who wants everyone to play nice...and has watched NER proactlvely make an effort to help it's drivers on very crowded racetracks. I think we can continue the posative trend, but we all have to work at it.

[JLawton]

[quote=Ed Funk;261722]
Andy you indicated that the SM/SSM crowd were not cowboys, maybe not, maybe it's the cowgirl . I've been forced into the weeds on more than one occassion by Shelby, when I was completely beside her! At first I thought that she suffered from major tunnel vision, but Steph has been forced over the curb twice on a pace lap both times by Shelby. This is the same Shelby that in her first race in a Prod car after being signed off the day before took herself and another car out very early in the race when she tried to take 3 at NHIS completely without regard for the car that was BESIDE her! ?Tunnel vision or over aggression? Don't know but that is one "cowgirl" that is going to hurt someone someday! How many of the wrecked SM/SSM's at the last NHIS race were secondary to her? I was spectating at the south chicane when she made a completely bone head move and took herself and another SM out.

quote]

This is what happens when you don't have to pay for your car or the damage to it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, lets get back on track here (literally).

I think a well placed call to Serge might remind him of your request. Maybe he can still do something. ITC is so small it can fit anywhere. If we are losing participants because of something real or perceived, we need to try and remidy the situation.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Andy - It was not my intention to "irk" anyone - For that I apologize. I try to quickly admit when I am wrong. The question was addressed to "C" drivers concerning this race grouping. I offered my personal experience and observations, as well as my opinion on "other's comments" concerning SM and SSM (I didn't make the original comments, they are just my opinion about our "new savior" shared by others - I thought they were appropriate leading up to "holy week"). In addition this is an IT web site - If we can't "air it out here" then what's the point of raising the question - Just send us to our room with no dessert like an unruly child.

That being said - the personal experince of others have "outted" some piss poor drivers. I have no vendetta against SM or SSM and I have no bias - The question might be "Do you have a bias?" I think some times when you "chime in" you are protecting your turf - I have no turf to protect on this thread - That doesn't mean I shouldn't share my experience nor should you - we're talking right?

So, as someone who acts in a official capacity, is respected , and has the ear of this club, what are you offering as it relates to Shelby and Karl. When I raised Karl's driving ability to one of the Stewards I was told he was "in the book" and was being watched. Would I enjoy the same exception and priviledges if I started taking out drivers and making idiot comments about my actions during a race? - I suspect not. Hell I got "pulled in on the carpet" for running a safe wet race line. Grant it - It was a politcal cluster F%#@ that I got stuck in the middle of and was more of an F&C issue, put there lies the problem. As a driver I have to defend myself for using good judgement (the cornerworker's protest <maybe a first> was not upheld), and drivers that use bad judgement get put in a "black book." - See the problem.

Are you the "pot calling the kettle black" or am I wrong about what I percieve as your bias. If I am wrong, I apologize and have to ask - what's next Champ? I think it's all fixable, just like the wrecked cars - and hopefully less costly and less painful.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - It was not my intention to "irk" anyone - For that I apologize. I try to quickly admit when I am wrong. The question was addressed to "C" drivers concerning this race grouping. I offered my personal experience and observations, as well as my opinion on "other's comments" concerning SM and SSM (I didn't make the original comments, they are just my opinion about our "new savior" shared by others - I thought they were appropriate leading up to "holy week"). In addition this is an IT web site - If we can't "air it out here" then what's the point of raising the question - Just send us to our room with no desert like an unruly child.

That being said - the personal experince of others have "outted" some piss poor drivers. I have no vendetta against SM or SSM and I have no bias - The question might be "Do you have a bias?" I think some times when you "chime in" you are protecting your turf - I have no turf to protect on this thread - That doesn't mean I shouldn't share my experience nor should you - we're talking right?

We are going to have to agree to diagree. The answer I am sure is somewhere in the middle. Yes, we have some specific drivers mentioned. My point is that it is very possible that these drivers would be a problem in any class they raced in. Your continued comments about 'our new savior' and not specific drivers seem misdirected, especially connected with your sly names for the class. It's obvious to me that you have a bias when you speak in general terms instead of specifics.

I don't THINK I am bias (who does?) but since I see both sides and have raced in both worlds I feel we need to target the bevavior of certain drivers not corral everyone under one umbrella. EVERY class has cowboys. The question is simple - does SM have MORE cowboys per race entry than any other class or does it just seem so because there are always 40+ of them around every weekend? Perception can be reality yes, but when some are threatening to not come back, I would think they would dig a little deeper.

So, as someone who acts in a official capacity, is respected , and has the ear of this club, what are you offering as it relates to Shelby and Karl. When I raised Karl's driving ability to one of the Stewards I was told he was "in the book" and was being watched. Would I enjoy the same exception and priviledges if I started taking out drivers and making idiot comments about my actions during a race? - I suspect not. Hell I got "pulled in on the carpet" for running a safe wet race line. Grant it - It was a politcal cluster F%#@ that I got stuck in the middle of and was more of an F&C issue, put there lies the problem. As a driver I have to defend myself for using good judgement (the corner works protest <maybe a first> was not upheld), and drivers that use bad judgement get put in a "black book." - See the problem.

Are you the "pot calling the kettle black" or am I wrong about what I percieve as your bias. If I am wrong, I apologize and have to ask - what's next Champ? I think it's all fixable, just like the wrecked cars - and hopefully less costly and less painful.

I guess nobody is reading the thread. There has been and is a groundswell to proactively self police. It seemed to work well last year. Each and everyone of you who has a gripe has the ability to protest a driver. As someone who has been protested once for showing a 'lack of patience' (guilty) it can and should be done. The situation as you describe it is so far from acceptable that you needed to protest. You NEEDED to. To come back years later and bash a class for it is what my problem is. Is it weird that "Crazy Joe" is heralded by some for some of his driving exploits yet if that was an SM in some of those videos, that person would be a 'cowboy'? See MY point?

ANYWAY........let's all watch SM self-police itself again in 2008 and continue to make form our opinions. Every class and every driver can improve. I know I can. Let's also present our issues to the local PTB and try and affect change. And fer-christs-sake, use the protest vehicle you have to police your own patch.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Amen To That Brother!

Please keep in mind that any "class comments" are echoes and not "original thoughts" - I don't own them but have repeated them.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Amen To That Brother!

Now stop wasting time and put the finishing touches on that Laser / Protege / Pacer project!!!!!!

More IT cars!!!!

[Tkczecheredflag]

As someone you run door handle to door handle with, I think ya got things juuuuuust right!!!

Jeff - I keep forgetting to say thanks for the Kudos. We have had some fun and I look forward to more of those times again soon.