E36 vs E46

[dj10]

Agree. Repairing it back to stock, legal. Strengthening it, not legal.

Jeff, you can't repair something back to stock, It is impossible. As soon as you weld a spot you are strengthing it and it now becomes a non stock item. It would be also not the recommended repair from the manufacturer, if we are talking BMW's look in any of the repair manuals. There has to be an allowance to repair, say the control arms or body suspension points with out having to replace them new? Or are you saying if the body cracks from stress you have to replace it?

[JeffYoung]

I won't lie, this issue has come up before. It's a problem. There are safety issues for you guys, but at the same time, arguments are being made that a known weak point can either be corrected prior to failure or strengthened after failure "cause the manual says so."

I have brake caliper seal failures. Should I be allowed to correct that with non sock parts?

In my view, you are of course allowed to fix, but the fix can ONLY be enough to repair the issue and no more. I've seen websites were far more than that was done to an IT car, and I didn't like the looks of it.

But it is a difficult issue, I know.

[dj10]

I won't lie, this issue has come up before. It's a problem. There are safety issues for you guys, but at the same time, arguments are being made that a known weak point can either be corrected prior to failure or strengthened after failure "cause the manual says so."

I have brake caliper seal failures. Should I be allowed to correct that with non sock parts?

In my view, you are of course allowed to fix, but the fix can ONLY be enough to repair the issue and no more. I've seen websites were far more than that was done to an IT car, and I didn't like the looks of it.

But it is a difficult issue, I know.

My 1st ARRC in 2005 I missed a shift (totally my fault, got inpatient) and blew the engine, but upon the year end inspection we noticed that the left rear shock was ready to punch through the fender mount! If I would have blown the engine in the 6th or 7th lap who knows what would have happened. BMW makes a repair plate for this. So as of today, I have not made any other mods to the car, only the 1 repair. I agree that you only make the repairs and not do the strengthing before the repair is needed.IMO

[Tom Donnelly]

Build vs Buy. Buy is better every time, I agree. And I already have one race car. But I can dream anyway. Build one car while running another? Doubt that too, it's hard to serve two masters!

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone. When I pick up a car I'll post what I got.

M3 vs 325 vs 330 vs 328 vs 323. Its a tough job but somebody's got to do it. I've ruled
out the '62 Ferarri GTO, the '73 Porsche 911 RSR IROC, the '67 Cobra 427 side oiler and the '72 MGB so that narrows it down quite a bit...

Oh, I forgot about the '70 convertible hemi 'Cuda and the '70 302 Boss Trans-Am Mustang and the '69 302 Trans-Am Camaro and the UOP Shadow and the 917K and the.....

Tom

How come the 323 (E46) is listed for ITS but not ITR? And why 3000 lbs but no SIR?

[robits325is]

How come the 323 (E46) is listed for ITS but not ITR? And why 3000 lbs but no SIR?

The E-46 is in one class like every other IT car except the evil E-36.
Same brakes, same transmission, 19 less stock hp. 3,000lbs based on certain adders this particular car gets. What those adders are remain somewhat of a mystery to me. My opinion is the E-46 should be 2,900 in ITS

[JLawton]

I won't lie, this issue has come up before. It's a problem. There are safety issues for you guys, but at the same time, arguments are being made that a known weak point can either be corrected prior to failure or strengthened after failure "cause the manual says so."

I have brake caliper seal failures. Should I be allowed to correct that with non sock parts?

In my view, you are of course allowed to fix, but the fix can ONLY be enough to repair the issue and no more. I've seen websites were far more than that was done to an IT car, and I didn't like the looks of it.

But it is a difficult issue, I know.

There was a long discussion about this very issue maybe three years ago. And it is tricky because it can be a safety issue no doubt. BUT, the repair needs to be made based on the factory manual. And if I recall (granted, it was three years ago so I'm a little fuzzy) the factory manual didn't mention reinforement of the area and anything more than welding the crack was deemed illegal.

There's tons of examples like this: Such as the 944 control arms and GTi front bearings. And reliability/PM is part of being fast. Every car has its weeknesses. We need to know what they are and keep an eye on them, not just go ahead and make an illegal fix in the name of safety......




.

[dj10]

There was a long discussion about this very issue maybe three years ago. And it is tricky because it can be a safety issue no doubt. BUT, the repair needs to be made based on the factory manual. And if I recall (granted, it was three years ago so I'm a little fuzzy) the factory manual didn't mention reinforement of the area and anything more than welding the crack was deemed illegal.

There's tons of examples like this: Such as the 944 control arms and GTi front bearings. And reliability/PM is part of being fast. Every car has its weeknesses. We need to know what they are and keep an eye on them, not just go ahead and make an illegal fix in the name of safety......
.

Control arms & wheel bearings can be replaced. How do you replace a body of a car? How do you repair a body of a car? BMW specifically made the body replacement plates for these repairs and they have BMW part numbers. If your control arm cracks and it is aluminum, go ahead and repair it, if you dare. Anyone who has welded knows that the welds are suppose to be stronger than the parant metal. Fabcar control arms not a factory replacement part or repair.

[JeffYoung]

Dan, I think we are on the same page. Obviously, if the subframe mounts pull loose an E36, you fix them by welding in a replacement metal plate. That is in my mind legal. Two things are not:

1. Performing the repair prior to a failure.

2. Doing anything other than what is minimally necessary to fix the issue.

But again, I think that is what you said and I believe that both Jeff L. and I would agree that is legal.

[Tom Donnelly]

Hey,
One last question, what wheels have you BMW guys been running? What size / offset / width etc?
I was looking at tire rack and noticed Kosei K1 are fairly inexpensive and 15lbs. BBS are expensive and 20lbs. What's on your street cars? Looking at the bimmer forums there's alot of wheels trading around. The Kosei's cost almost half what my panasports cost.
Tom

[mlytle]

the two street bmw's have bmw m-contours. the race bmw has multiple sets of kosei's and team dynamics. both are light, inexpensive and have so far been strong.

[mlytle]

Dan, I think we are on the same page. Obviously, if the subframe mounts pull loose an E36, you fix them by welding in a replacement metal plate. That is in my mind legal. Two things are not:

1. Performing the repair prior to a failure.

2. Doing anything other than what is minimally necessary to fix the issue.

But again, I think that is what you said and I believe that both Jeff L. and I would agree that is legal.

why wait until failure? and how is failure defined? is it when the mount rips our in a high speed corner and causes a crash? is it when you think you might be able to see something that might be a crack? and how do you tell after the repair has been done whether or not there was a prior failure?

bottom line, nobody wants to wait until ultimate failure...dangerous and 10x more difficult to fix. if the repair is a standard factory procedure and uses standard factory parts i don't see a problem with doing it prior to catastrophic incident. non standard "creative' preventative repairs...no way. standard factory fixes for known issues..go for it.

[JLawton]

why wait until failure? and how is failure defined? is it when the mount rips our in a high speed corner and causes a crash? is it when you think you might be able to see something that might be a crack? and how do you tell after the repair has been done whether or not there was a prior failure?

bottom line, nobody wants to wait until ultimate failure...dangerous and 10x more difficult to fix. if the repair is a standard factory procedure and uses standard factory parts i don't see a problem with doing it prior to catastrophic incident. non standard "creative' preventative repairs...no way. standard factory fixes for known issues..go for it.

There's "by the book" and maybe a little reality. By the book, this is clearly illegal. See my example of 944 control arms. Is it OK for them to swap in beefier arms so they don't have the high speed failure?? And again, if I remember the discussion from years ago, there was no mention of reinforcement to fix a crack. The ONLY mention was welding AFTER there is a crack. It doesn't matter what they may or may not do in the shop, it goes by what the manual says.

Would i protest someone who did this?? No. But don't try to justify it being legal due to the "safety" card. Trying to justify it as legal always makes me think, "what other "justifications" are going on with the car..........."

[JeffYoung]

Jeff L. is right. "Fixing" it in a way that reinforces it prior to failure is illegal Marshall, pure and simple. I understand your point, but we all face these types of weaknesses on our cars - things that are going to fail - and we all have to deal with them.

And failure is easy enough to define isn't it? You start to see cracking in the subrame mounts and then do your factory repair (and thank your lucky stars that your manufacturer has a factory procedure for it because almost all other manufacturers do not). But that is it, and no more.

[dj10]

Jeff L. is right. "Fixing" it in a way that reinforces it prior to failure is illegal Marshall, pure and simple. I understand your point, but we all face these types of weaknesses on our cars - things that are going to fail - and we all have to deal with them.

And failure is easy enough to define isn't it? You start to see cracking in the subrame mounts and then do your factory repair (and thank your lucky stars that your manufacturer has a factory procedure for it because almost all other manufacturers do not). But that is it, and no more.

I'm from the old school, if it's not broke don't fix it. The bodies of cars are not like control arms, cheap and easily replaced. If no one will protest reinforcing the body, which came 1st the chicken or the egg, why make it illegal? The repairs will not make the car any faster.

[JeffYoung]

The car will be stiffer, and it will be more reliable. While not immediately faster, there is a performance advantage.

Guys, this is a frustrating one for me. It's really no different than if I played the "safety" card and said my brakes are inadequate to justify using an illegal fix.

It is NOT legal to fix this before there is a problem in the manner describedand honestly, just from an attitude correction perspective, I might protest it. The attitude here that it is legal is bothersome.

[dj10]

The car will be stiffer, and it will be more reliable. While not immediately faster, there is a performance advantage.

Guys, this is a frustrating one for me. It's really no different than if I played the "safety" card and said my brakes are inadequate to justify using an illegal fix.

It is NOT legal to fix this before there is a problem in the manner describedand honestly, just from an attitude correction perspective, I might protest it. The attitude here that it is legal is bothersome.

Jeff, I'm not arguing with you , I'm making conversation and trying to tell you this a feutile rule to protest on. I think it would be impossible to prove unless you cut the guys car apart and then I doubt it would be conclusive. If you have brake issues with a seal that goes bad, how am I going to prove that you are using a different brake piston seal? I bet the illegal part is identical to the oem part, or at least they are both black. I would never protest you even if I knew you were using a better seal. Now if you decide to use bigger and better 4 piston calipers, this is a different story. Yes we are lucky that BMW has a fix for our problem, it would have saved everyone a headache or two if they would have reinforced these points from the factory.:cool: Like everything else hind sight is 20/20.

[mlytle]

There's "by the book" and maybe a little reality. By the book, this is clearly illegal. See my example of 944 control arms. Is it OK for them to swap in beefier arms so they don't have the high speed failure?? And again, if I remember the discussion from years ago, there was no mention of reinforcement to fix a crack. The ONLY mention was welding AFTER there is a crack. It doesn't matter what they may or may not do in the shop, it goes by what the manual says.

Would i protest someone who did this?? No. But don't try to justify it being legal due to the "safety" card. Trying to justify it as legal always makes me think, "what other "justifications" are going on with the car..........."

i think there is a difference in your example and this one. is the 944 beefier control arm a legal factory part for the 944? if it is, then what is the problem with putting them in? if not, then hell yeah it is illegal. on the bmw the part is a factory part, with a factory procedure, specifically for a car that is on a spec line in the itcs. factory, factory, factory. nothing non-standard. not clearly illegal. and it does not make the car any stiffer...unless the mount has already ripped out.

for the bmw's at least..this issue goes away if vins are ditched. the e36 m3 shell has the plates from the factory and is otherwise identical to a 325 shell.....

[JeffYoung]

It's factory, factory, factory ONCE THE FAILURE OCCURS. BMW did not do this proactively correct? NOT LEGAL TO DO IT UNTIL THE FAILURE OCCURS.

The E36 M3 example is wrong. Yes, you can use the E36 M3 shell, but you would have to remove anything that did not come on the model that you are "making."

[Tom Donnelly]

Here's my take on this. Based upon my research, I bet if you looked for stress cracks or signs of stress on any used 3-series you'd find it. We are alowed to magnaflux stuff and replace based upon signs of impending fatigue. How is a car body any different? It doesn't have to be catastophic failure, just failure, right?

Tom

mlytle, thanks for the info about the Kosei's. Tire rack had them for $99.00 each.
What are m-contours? The M3 wheels?

[lateapex911]

Here's my take on this. Based upon my research, I bet if you looked for stress cracks or signs of stress on any used 3-series you'd find it. We are alowed to magnaflux stuff and replace based upon signs of impending fatigue. How is a car body any different? It doesn't have to be catastophic failure, just failure, right?

Tom

Right....but there is a time when it's NOT right, and a time when it IS right. Careful and repeated inspections will determine when that is.