Breaking News from LRP

[TimM ITB]

Gone for a day and an WHOLE BUNCH of new input on this subject. But the facts still remain the same:

- LRP threw a monster monkey wrench into the 2008 season's scheduling - the NARRC series most prominently affected-and yet we are trying to appease LRP by "choosing" a date that is in conflict within our own series (NARRC)
- NER is the host region affected and NER needs to find a way to cope with the situation, taking the hit one way or the other, not Tri-Region

If it means that only one event can have the NARRC sanction, then give it to Tri-Region!! I know that this messes up the bonus points situation, but it will only be for THIS year. Potentially ruining your "brother" region's chances of success for a Regional weekend, and the hard feelings that will bring about..........THAT will last a long time.

I am confused as to the obsession with getting another date at LRP? Why do we have to do this? Is there a gun pointed at our heads for 2009 or beyond if we don't take a date in July for 2008? If this is accurate, couldn't we have a driver's school over 2 days and get people signed off quickly?? Hasn't this been done before? Would that not be a better use of the date in July that we "must" take? Maybe even draw a bunch more people to a school that, assuming they pass both days, means that they can go racing after just one weekend of school? I gotta believe that would be attractive to many people considering a school. And I absolutely believe that we need to find some creative alternative to this problem, rather than having 2 regional races in the same part of the world on the same weekend.

Tim M

[JaxonMotorsports44]

Does anyone have any insight on whether or not LRP would allow the SCCA to take the date in May? That sounds like a solution that keeps everyone happy, atleast TRI, NER, NARRC and prevents the conflict. No new pavement, but if the issue is "feelings" and what is best, this would be a good solution.

[ner88]

Does anyone have any insight on whether or not LRP would allow the SCCA to take the date in May? That sounds like a solution that keeps everyone happy, atleast TRI, NER, NARRC and prevents the conflict. No new pavement, but if the issue is "feelings" and what is best, this would be a good solution.

NER already has two races schedules for May.

[JaxonMotorsports44]

The May event could be a joint MoHud/ NER event, since MoHud is also being impacted.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If it means that only one event can have the NARRC sanction, then give it to Tri-Region!! I know that this messes up the bonus points situation, but it will only be for THIS year. Potentially ruining your "brother" region's chances of success for a Regional weekend, and the hard feelings that will bring about..........THAT will last a long time.

Tri-Region is on the NARRC schedule so unless the NARRC Committee does something drastic, I don't think there will be a change in the NARRC race.

I am confused as to the obsession with getting another date at LRP? Why do we have to do this? Is there a gun pointed at our heads for 2009 or beyond if we don't take a date in July for 2008? If this is accurate, couldn't we have a driver's school over 2 days and get people signed off quickly?? Hasn't this been done before? Would that not be a better use of the date in July that we "must" take? Maybe even draw a bunch more people to a school that, assuming they pass both days, means that they can go racing after just one weekend of school? I gotta believe that would be attractive to many people considering a school. And I absolutely believe that we need to find some creative alternative to this problem, rather than having 2 regional races in the same part of the world on the same weekend.

Tim M

That's the thing. Some of this is unknown. What will LRP do if we refuse the date? HOPEFULLY we will get the same 4 race consideration in 2009 (3 Regionals and a National) but...

Add to that if the SCCA doesn't take this date, the only regional at LRP this year will be the NARRC Runoffs...and aside from those that hate the track or have a hair across their rear about fees (wait until it's public what it will cost a region to run at NJMP...) 1 race in a year is just not enough for most people...me included. We should have at least 2 race weekends at each track per year IMHO.

Fact: The schools at LRP lose money. It would be dumb to do a school without a Regional that weekend. The NHIS school in April the last few years has been a 2 day school where everyone gets enough track time so most everyone passes.

If we could be guaranteed that we wouldn't 'suffer any concequences' for not taking the weekend, then bag it for sure. If we HAVE to take it...then we have to so as not to lose it. We need to preserve our dates until Palmer comes on line - especially given the sale of NHIS. We have 2 years of tip-toeing IMHO. Sucks.

If there are two events, I am convinced that they both fail. Some reasonable folks believe that the LRP event will draw plenty of cars because it could be a true double and is on new pavement. I see too many forces working against it however. That Pocono double with a Pro IT race should be awesome.

I just don't see a good solution. Hopefully, there will not be two events on the same weekend AND we will be able to get our 4 selections again next year. HOPEFULLY.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Does anyone have any insight on whether or not LRP would allow the SCCA to take the date in May? That sounds like a solution that keeps everyone happy, atleast TRI, NER, NARRC and prevents the conflict. No new pavement, but if the issue is "feelings" and what is best, this would be a good solution.

I think we are making a huge assumption that just because the SCCA and 'The Club' don't have the date booked, means it's open. I doubt it.

[Greg Amy]

What will LRP do if we refuse the date...If we HAVE to take it...then we have to so as not to lose it.

Then accept the date as a loss leader to retain it for subsequent years, and run it as a school. NER takes the financial hit as an investment towards the future, novices get the opportunity to attend a school - thereby increasing NER's market pool of potential entrants for the '08 season - and no "competitive conflicts" exist between supposedly-friendly regions hosting races on the same week(end) via targeting the same potential entrant pool.

If LRP is forcing SCCA to take a hit, financial or otherwise, because of their repaving schedule, it should be placed on the shoulders of the region(s) that happened to have scheduled during that timeframe.

To do otherwise is supremely selfish, rude, and self-centered. - GA

[dickita15]

Uh okay Greg, no region is equipped to take the $50K hit that would mean. NER’s racing program, which is the largest in the Narrc area, can net $30K for the year if everything is perfect. I believe MoHud lost $30K on one event last year. The margins are not there. Be realistic.

[gran racing]

Don't we have a thing called PDX? I think that I've heard something about it but rarely do I ever see it being utilized by regions. It's a great tool and we as a club who complain about a break in the "ladder" between Solo racing and wheel-to-wheel still don't take advantage of it nearly enough. I've looked at a few HPDE organizations that have LRP on their schedule and people are not even able to register until a bit later in the year. This is done because of an overwhelming response to the events.

Why don't we keep the LRP date, not run a race, and instead run a day or two day PDX? The region would gain some exposure for the secret club, potentially attract some new interest in SCCA wheel-to-wheel racing, and quite realistically make some money off it. If LRP charges SCCA a higher rate for race weekends than a HPDE, maybe go back to the track seeking an adjustment in pricing? Even if they still charge more, I just have to believe the numbers would still work out nicely.

PDXs take less resources, flaggers, ect. than a race weekend. Sounds like NER is ready to pony up the resources to run a race weekend, why not a PDX? O.k. Worst case - NER just isn't up for doing a PDX on that weekend for whatever reason. Partner-up with another club who is. SCCA, COMM, EMRA, Track Daze, ect.

Why not?

[Greg Amy]

...no region is equipped to take the $50K hit...

Note that this is not a personal attack on you, Dick, but you're trying to support the idea that the only alternative for NER is to F**K-OVER another region so we can keep a date at LRP?!?!? Frankly, I find that absolutely effing absurd. No date at ANY track is worth that, and it blatantly illustrates the ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY that has resulted from the local SCCA regions trying to "compete" for events. It has evolved from putting on races to a political football for organizers jockeying for power, clearly in the face of the whole point of being there.

Hell, dude, I'll pay the effin entry fee to instruct if that's what it takes!!! But if our region goes forward with this, well, I don't know what I'm going to do long term, but you can rest assured I'll start paying attention to the hosting region for future events and avoid NER events, even if it means traveling more to race.

I will NOT be a willing participant of such actions. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Worst case scenario as I see it:

• NER doesn't put on an event. LRP only gives SCCA 2 races in 2009 and beyond.
• NHIS transitions into NHMP and decided to shut down but for two multi-million dollar weeks a year when NASCAR comes to town.
• We realize that NJMP is going to be as expensive to run at as LRP.

There is a real potential for us to have 2 at LRP, 2 at Pocono, however many at NJMP and one or two at WGI. Hmmmm. Palmer can't come fast enough, right? THAT is why the dates could be so important.

While I understand the initial venom Greg has for the issue, I think it's somewhat shortsighted. There ARE situations that people get put into, through actions outside their control, that have to be dealt with a certain way in order to retain harmony in the future. Anyone with kids knows these issues on an almost daily basis.

Do we all know that if we only have 2 races at LRP a year that MoHud program probably goes away completely? These other regions only have the LRP dates that NER 'gives' them. I doubt NER would give NYR the NARRC event if there was only one regional and the Runoffs. There is much more at stake here than watering down two events on one weekend. We should all get much more informed before we threaten a regional boycott...seriously.

Having said all that, it's why I have yet to come with a good solution. PDX's and schools lose money. Schools can be a loss leader - but that loss gets mitigated when a regional follows it the next day. Either would be financial suicide for anyone who tries it.

Yes, NER has to make this decision, but they didn't create the issue, they just have to react to it. NER 'controls' all the LRP dates so they must look much further than that weekend when making the decision...and that future isn't neccessarily just their own...

I guess what I am saying is that this decision is much bigger than one region screwing another in order to just have a race.

I hope that there is no competing event and we get to keep all our dates. THAT is the only way we all 'win' in this crappy situation.

I don't think anyone WANTS two events on the same weekend. We just all might want to understand why there MIGHT be.

[gran racing]

I’m fully aware that competition schools lose money. For HPDEs / PDXs, if an organization loses money putting on a HPDE at Lime Rock something is not being done right. There plenty of organizations that run for-profit and Lime Rock is one of their big dates. This would allow the region to finally utilize the PDX tool more, help future racers get involved with our club, and not screw over THREE regions. (Tri-Region is a co-operative effort of the Northeast Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, and South Jersey regions of the SCCA.) If a region can’t be bothered with a PDX, maybe it could be sell the date to another club directly for the same price but still retain ownership of it for future years.

[raffaelli]

Starts the day after Memorial Day

Ah, I was wondering how this would effect the Grand Am race. Seems like they will be the last on the old surface.

[bg43wex]

I’m fully aware that competition schools lose money. For HPDEs / PDXs, if an organization loses money putting on a HPDE at Lime Rock something is not being done right. There plenty of organizations that run for-profit and Lime Rock is one of their big dates. This would allow the region to finally utilize the PDX tool more, help future racers get involved with our club, and not screw over THREE regions..

Dave the big difference is that SCCA buys unmuffeled race weekends not middle of the week muffled NON race days, the cost difference in rent is twice as much plus many add ons the track mandates.

If we could rent for a mark club price we could do PDX's for $200.00 ea also.

[gran racing]

Hey, if SCCA regions want to compete against each other and in the end hurt multiple regions, then go for it. I for one think it would just be stupid.

HPDEs are at LRP are much more expensive than $200 and they sell out extremely quickly. Now with the Club taking many of the previous open days, the market for track days at LRP becomes even more valuable. So, how much would it cost for these dates and is there any opportunity to reduce the overall expenses?

On edit...I know, if I really wanted to be a part of this discussion I'd attend the meetings and quite possibly will if this is on an adjenda.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hey, if SCCA regions want to compete against each other and in the end hurt multiple regions, then go for it. I for one think it would just be stupid.

HPDEs are at LRP are much more expensive than $200 and they sell out extremely quickly. Now with the Club taking many of the previous open days, the market for track days at LRP becomes even more valuable. So, how much would it cost for these dates and is there any opportunity to reduce the overall expenses?

Dave,

I don't think anyone WANTS this. The problem here is that none of us have all the info. The isue is that NER may HAVE to take it. Knowing WHAT you DON'T know is key here.

It's possible that IMSA could come and take the date...hopefully on a one-time basis. HOPEFULLY.

[gran racing]

Understood.

[Greg Amy]

The isue is that NER may HAVE to take it.

Not true: no one HAS to take a date. NER may CHOOSE to take the date in lieu of losing it in the future.

If NER CHOOSES to do this, then NER should be the one to take the hit, no one else.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not true: no one HAS to take a date. NER may CHOOSE to take the date in lieu of losing it in the future.

If NER CHOOSES to do this, then NER should be the one to take the hit, no one else.

You are absolutly correct in that NER doesn't HAVE to do it. Nobody HAS to do anything. But not understanding the ramifications of such actions and then taking NO action COULD lead to a MUCH worse situation in the future. Sometimes everyone has to feel a little pain so that we can all prosper in the future. FACT.

I hope this isn't the case but it is certainly a possibility.

[JaxonMotorsports44]

I think we are making a huge assumption that just because the SCCA and 'The Club' don't have the date booked, means it's open. I doubt it.

I wasnt assuming the date was OPEN, in terms of a vacant date, but rather, could there be flexibility among other organizations, LRP, "The Club" or whatever to make it work.