Breaking News from LRP

[Dave Patten]

Tim,
As idealistic as your “pro race workers strike” sounds, what is to be gained for those striking? What hardships are the workers enduring that call for such actions? There are none so why would or should they strike? If anything the workers would risk loosing what they enjoy most, being part of road racing at it highest level.

Regarding the LRP July 4th date:
I believe this date was discussed as a possible SCCA race date at LRP before the Pocono date was confirmed. I may be wrong in my recollections of the discussions at the November Road Race Scheduling meeting held at the Northeast Division Mini-Con Meeting back in November. Once the Pocono date was confirmed the LRP date was pulled from consideration. Again, as I remember, the dates for SCCA at LRP were not available until the day or two prior to this scheduling meeting making it very hard to discuss a viable schedule prior to the meeting.

Given the added races in South Jersey and ultimately the conflicting Double Regional at Pocono, taking the July 3, 4 & 5 days at LRP as unmuffled, $26K/day race days doesn’t make economic sense to me. At other rates, for other uses maybe, but not as a race weekend.

I’d say, thanks for the offer, but it comes too late for NER/MoHud to fully utilize the dates to replace those lost in June. We would certainly entertain adding a July 4th race weekend to our normally scheduled June dates if that opportunity exists for 2009, but for 2008 it just isn’t feasible.

[StephF]

I've just finished wading through this thread, and was going to stay out of this fur fest.....but......
Tim, I love you man, but I really think a 'strike' would be bad for SCCA, no matter how carefully thought it it appeared to be.
It very likely wouldn't affect LRP at all, and could possibly endanger participants.
The way I see it, if that was attempted, the track would be on the horn pulling in everyone who ever walked in the gate and flagged or corner (or NOT!) and they would be out there within 20 minutes. The most we could do to them would be to delay things and really piss them off.
Don't forget, they have had a long relationship with SBRS racing school....and there would be plenty of folks from the school, or past students who would pop in to work a day for whatever compensation they were promised.
THEN.......the crap would fly for SCCA.
So no, no 'leverage' there for whatever it's worth. Just the potential to really shoot ourselves in the foot.

[lateapex911]

That's always been the problem with negotiating with lime Rock, from what I've heard. On one hand, we think we hold some cards because we staff events. But..."we" don't. The workers from 4 or 5 regions staff the events. Many of those workers desire to do the pro events far more than they desire to do the SCCA regional event. I seem to recall that there is actually a "pecking order" to determine who gets to staff the "glory" events. Asking them to stand down would require them to give up their favorite event, AND asking 4 regions workers to support the desires of ONE region. (Technically we might see it as a blow to LRP for the good of us ALL, but it won't be seen that way by those involved.)

Secondly, I seem to recall LRP starting a "club" of paid flaggers...I think they need to have just such a staff if they expect to man the track for all the LRP club track days they will be having, and THOSE folks are probably the highest on the list when it comes to decide who "gets" to work the big events. Of course, they won't be nearly as well trained and talented as "our" guys, but, LRP will probably utilize some of "our" guys in key roles. but don't bet they wouldn't go to "lan B" in a second, as Steph points out.

Sorry Tim, not trying to rain on your parade,......

[dpc]

So Tim, are you going to man the pickett line at registration? What will your sign say. dave

[Magical Trevor]

That's always been the problem with negotiating with lime Rock, from what I've heard. On one hand, we think we hold some cards because we staff events. But..."we" don't. The workers from 4 or 5 regions staff the events. Many of those workers desire to do the pro events far more than they desire to do the SCCA regional event. I seem to recall that there is actually a "pecking order" to determine who gets to staff the "glory" events. Asking them to stand down would require them to give up their favorite event, AND asking 4 regions workers to support the desires of ONE region. (Technically we might see it as a blow to LRP for the good of us ALL, but it won't be seen that way by those involved.)

Secondly, I seem to recall LRP starting a "club" of paid flaggers...I think they need to have just such a staff if they expect to man the track for all the LRP club track days they will be having, and THOSE folks are probably the highest on the list when it comes to decide who "gets" to work the big events. Of course, they won't be nearly as well trained and talented as "our" guys, but, LRP will probably utilize some of "our" guys in key roles. but don't bet they wouldn't go to "lan B" in a second, as Steph points out.

Sorry Tim, not trying to rain on your parade,......

I don't know how it was 15 or more years ago, but there is no "pecking order" for pro events now-flag chiefs take what help they can get, be it a school or a huge ALMS date.
Also, there are times (car clubs, and the new Club at Lime Rock Park) where the track pays "employed flaggers" to work corners; however, more than half of these are SCCA members that normally volunteer for the same occupation. If they were dedicated to the cause of the SCCA/region....
But anyway, I don't think Tim's idea would work too well-it's nice to think that members would have that kind of power, but they would still all be replaceable in one way or another.
Good "out of the box thinking" though.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Steph - Please understand that I am only trying to think "outside the box" in an effort to make sure that people who know a hell of a lot more than I do, are also thinking outside the box. I am not saying that a Strike is the answer - I posed it as a question to consider.

I am not sure I follow Dave P's thinking - I thought we were all part of the same club. If some sort of "injustice" was being imposed on our volunteers, the people who give so freely of themselves, and I was asked to take an "action" on their behalf, I wouildn't have to think more than 1/100th of a second to assist them. Keep in mind that my roots in the great club are in F&C.

Again I'll ask my question - Are we using all our strenghts and resources? Are the powers to be thinking outside the box on this issue?

[Dave Patten]

Tim,
I used to think the same thing, that "we" are all part of the same club and should work in concert with one another for the good of all, but things have recently happened that confirmed to me that this may not be broadly held as true for all SCCA members. Enough so that it has somewhat changed that opinion for me.

Andy B raised the concern that the NER Regional on Memorial Day at NHMS could be hard to staff being against the GrandAm race at LRP. That date has never been discussed at NER Road Racing Board meetings with significant concern, but the NHMS Double Regional on July 12 & 13 was under serious discussion of being dropped from the NER schedule because of potential staffing shortfalls.

I sat in on the December 2007(?) NER Club Racing Board meeting and listened to concerns that the July 2008 NHMS Regional race might not be able to be staffed adequately because workers would be at LRP for the ALMS race. It was discussed that the NHMS Regional should be cancelled rather than running a risk of not being able to race due to a flagger shortage. There was serious consideration to cancelling this date before it was eventually left on the NER schedule.

Tim, I guess the actual vocalization at that meeting, that enough flaggers would not support the Region's event and work for ALMS instead, enough in fact to put the operation of the NER Regional at risk, is what has given me this revised veiwpoint.

Please don't take this as an attack on flaggers, drivers are equally as guilty of pursueing personal choices of where to place there efforts. I myself raced at only 2 NER events last year. I focussed on National races in GTL across the division, which took me away from my home region's events that I have supported for nearly 2 decades.

Some drivers watch the weather forecast and bail at the last minute if the weather looks iffy. I changed my goals and started racing outside of my Region's events. We are not all lily white on giving 100% support of our Region's or even SCCA's events.

Regarding the Pocono/LRP date conflicts or other NER scheduling/admin type issues, it's all fine and dandy that folks express concerns here on this and other message boards, but the NER Club Racing Board Chairman, Serge Lentz, his Assistants, Jerry Rigoli and Paul Faford and NER's RE Chris Franson should be contatcted directly to assure your veiwpoint is heard. This needs to be done before the March NeDiv Roundtable Meeting 3/14-16/2008 where the Division schedule will be finalized.

I'll make it easy, here are their e-mail addresses:

Chris Franson, NER RE - chris.franson@ner.org
Serge Lentz, NER CRB Chair - [email protected]
Jerry Rigoli, NER CRB Assist Chair - [email protected]
Paul Faford, NER CRB Assist Chair - [email protected]

Also I encourage NER drivers to attend the NER CRB meetings to see the process first hand and to participate in it.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Dave - Very helpful information for me - thanks.

[Tkczecheredflag]

So Tim, are you going to man the pickett line at registration? What will your sign say. dave

Lime Rock Park
Celebrating 51 years of Racing

SCCA
We've supported you for all of them.
April 8, 1957

Is there an Elephant in the House?
Don't forget us NOW!

[StephF]

A couple of random thoughts here...It's been a few years since I was inside at LRP, so things may be completely different now.
That being said, I am guessing we are being offered the July 4th weekend so that the track can try to have some sort of spectator event. They don't have to pay us to be there, we pay them. They can try to get a few bucks coming in through the gate. I think that is the only reason we were approached.
Is there any way we could opt to perhaps switch that weekend with any club that is racing later in the season instead? It may end up being a restricted, muffled event though.
Obviously, some careful negotiating would be in order here, both with Skip and any other clubs.

A late season restricted regional/enduro, etc would possibly pull in enough entrants to make it work IF we could negotiate a better rental rate from Skip for the event. Ideally, it would be something with tons of track time. If there was any way to make the event creative, and perhaps run in conjunction with a rally too, that might help offset expenses.

I think that the bottom line will be that we need to find someone who could develop a relationship with Skip so that we could actually open a dialogue with him. We need to have a good, working relationship with him instead of being outside looking in, like we are now.

Maybe look for someone who has been a student of his in the past who is now SCCA, and can hopefully bridge the growing divide.

I don't think Skip is anti-SCCA. I don't think he's anti any racing. He's trying to make a living from one venue now.
I heard he was fed the ideas of charging moremoremore by someone who had zero racing background, and had a high powered businessman approach to things, (probably complete with Powerpoint presentations) and he basically convinced him that he was grossly undercharging for his product.
They raised their rates.
Unfortunately, we paid. And it proved this guy right.
And now, to make it go back will be exteremly difficult.
So....look for an alternative date, and someone who can be an ambassador.

[Rabbit05]

Lime Rock Park

Celebrating 51 years of Racing

SCCA
We've supported you for all of them.
April 8, 1957

Is there an Elephant in the House?
Don't forget us NOW!

Tim,
I don't know about anyone else...but I LIKE your sign ...


- John

[wepsbee]

I did not get a chance to read all 11 pages but the beginning posts indicate a question about needing the school in June. Both my sister and myself anticipate going to both the schools at NHIS in Apr and the school at LRP. So I hope it is not canceled.

[JLawton]

I did not get a chance to read all 11 pages but the beginning posts indicate a question about needing the school in June. Both my sister and myself anticipate going to both the schools at NHIS in Apr and the school at LRP. So I hope it is not canceled.

That has been my concern about possibly losing the school. There maybe a few people who have to wait until the WGI school.

Dan, there are times where drivers get signed off at the NHIS school because of all the track time you get. Make sure you come with the car prepped 10/10ths and with some crew help. Missing a session or two can really hurt your chances of getting signed off. Hunt us down at the track. We'll be in the north garages on the north side.

[gran racing]

with the car prepped 10/10ths

Dan - meaning safety, won't break down, have car already inspected / log book. Jeff's not talking about all of the go-fast parts.

[wepsbee]

I already have my license and 2 whole race events under my belt from last year. However I am smart enough to know that I know very little about racing. I want track time and instruction.My sister has just purchased a "race ready" car which should need little prep. She of course just has her novice permit. We will have some crew with experience to help us out at the school events. Having said that any more info from you vets would be appreciated!!

[JLawton]

Dan - meaning safety, won't break down, have car already inspected / log book. Jeff's not talking about all of the go-fast parts.

Yea, what he said!!

.My sister has just purchased a "race ready" car

No such thing....

What kind of car does she have?
If you both have been signed off, I wouldn't worry about the June school. The best way to get experience is to go racing!!

[wepsbee]

We both are driving Ford Escort GT's. We are in it for the fun. Her car has been raced in the area for a number of years by Dave Ford. We have to upgrade the roll cage and add new harness and other than regular maintenance it should be ready for school. I do have my regular license but she just has her novice permit. Racing is a great teacher but if you are doing something wrong you will never know unless someone tells you, that is why I would like more instruction at a school.

[lateapex911]

If the car can make sound, consider running a track day with a group like Ian Prout's Sports Car Driver Association. (SCDA).

Lots of us are instructors, and we can certainly tailor the day to the level you or you sister needs. Dave Gran, myself, and others might be able to set it up. I know Dave and I are doing Watkins Glen in April.

[wepsbee]

That sounds like a plan. What event are you attending at WGI in Apr?

[gran racing]

The HPDE on April 28th & 29th is run by SCDA. Tons of track time, very well run, and just a great time. They are also running a HPDE at Lime Rock on 4/10 which I'm planning on attending. I have a passenger seat in my Prelude if you feel like going for a ride and compare how we approach the track.