New API Oil is killing our cars......

[Bob Roth]

Forwarded to me, something to think about...

Stumbled on this interesting comments on motor oil.


Sports Car Club of B.C. User Forum
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Author Topic: Oil is Killing our cars Part I (Read 171 times)Mike_the_Oldest


By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc. www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596


Oil is Killing our cars Part I

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use.

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated.
For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.

[ScotMac]

By Valvoline's "off road 20-50", do you mean valvoline's Racing oil? I have also heard of this problem and it was quoted to me that Valvoline's Racing oils had the right composition. Can anyone confirm?

-Scot

[joeg]

Old Diesel engine oil is the best

[JohnRW]

Old Diesel engine oil is the best

My tow vehicle generates it in 4 gallon increments, several times a year...I'll save it for you !!!

[Marcus Miller]

Rotella by Shell, available in regular or Synthetic (blue or white) bottles.

Problem solved! Adn race proven; we ran it in our enduro miata for the 25 hours of Thunderhill, finished 2nd.

Marcus

[chuck baader]

I am curious if the problem can be alleviated by using MSo2 in the oil? Chuck

[GTIspirit]

I've heard something similar just recently.
See page 3.
https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/action...08/jan2008.pdf

Haibeck became interested in AMSOIL 10W-40
Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil (AMO) when he learned it is specifically designed to meet the needs of
car engines with flat tappets, such as those in the ZR-
1 engines. “That applies to the ’60s muscle cars as well.
The high-performance engines can’t use today’s oils, he said.
New API specifications do not meet the requirements
of the ZR-1 engines. The removal of the EP (ZDDP)
additives makes the oil incompatible with the LT5
engines, Haibeck said. “AMO conforms to the SG and prior specifications,” he said.
“I made a big discovery that as the oil evolves it doesn’t necessarily get better; it’s simply changing.”
Haibeck began recommending AMSOIL AMO for
the engines because “it is blended specially to address
this technical requirement. AMSOIL solves the problem.”

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/
(Near the bottom, search on "ZR-1")

I don't know domestic engines, what are these "flat tappets?" I'm also not a lubricant engineer, so I don't know about these additive packages. But it sounds like a similar problem to what was being discussed.....

I have a Preferred Customer account with Amsoil so I can get their oil at discount. I've been thinking of getting some for my '87 GTI 16V, in 10W40 because my oil cooler works very well. Maybe I should go with this AMO 10W40, thoughts?

[philstireservice]

I'm an Amsoil dealer - I can make anyone a Amsoil Preferred customer. Then you can save on Amsoil direct from them !!

[bamfp]

I work at an air cooled VW engine shop. We only use Brad Penn oil in all of our engines. It has very high zddp content. Swepco works good as well.

Blake Meredith

[rcr510]

I am redoing the valve train on my Datsun 510 and installing a new cam, rockers etc.. Kind of leaning toward a vintage setup. Been broke for some time & not able to race in C and just tinkering with parts that have been on the shelf.

Does anyone know who has the highest level of zddp today? Not sure its true but I've read that you are ok on older setups as the stuff rather bonds to the "used" cams. They say that you are at highest risk with new cams which are not coated with the zddp. Don't know but I want to be sure I do not smoke my new investment.

Matt A.

[Joe Camilleri]

Here's a link to another relayed article and supply of racing oil.

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra...er/081106.html

You will notice on the 20w50 Valvoline racing oil that it says "Off road use only".

[GTIspirit]

You will notice on the 20w50 Valvoline racing oil that it says "Off road use only".

Phosphorus tends to poison catalytic converters so they don't work so well. Hence reducing phosphorus additives to prolong catalytic converter life, i.e. "prolong the life of emissions control devices." With the move towards catalytic converters that last over 100k miles, reducing phosphorus poisoning is important.

For a similar reason, to prolong the life of emissions control devices, new diesel oil also has reduced ash content. Ash is the stuff that accumulates in a diesel particulate filter and doesn't burn off. This is why a particulate filter has to be cleaned out every 120-150k miles. Best analogy is to think of a wood stove. The stuff left over, that doesn't burn, is the ash. So over the life of a vehicle, reduced ash in the oil means reduced ash into the exhaust, which means reduced ash stuck in the filter.