ITR Integra Type-R

[spnkzss]

Rob, I think your issue is less of one. We already know that chasis will work well in A.

I know, I was just joking. My differences is just mroe than just a few extra ponies. I jsut expected more from teh BMWs and was kinda disapointed. I can't figure out why it took them so long to get down to ITS times. I truly would like to know since my outsider understanding was they took weight and the restrictor plate away from the ITS BMWs and added wider wheels. I thought that was it.

[JeffYoung]

Rob, my guess is they will get there, quickly. The potential is obviously there, now someone needs to spend the big dollars and/or development time like BWorld did, like SS did, like Sunbelt did. Once they do, watch out.

[JamesB]

Well we already knew the local ones where top prep, they went ITR to run without the SIR. So I didnt expect times to change all that much. But other areas where people are just building cars and getting them up to tune you would see the improvement over time rather then day 1.

[erlrich]

I suspect that when... fully developed ITR cars arrive on the scene, they will be several seconds at worst faster at Road Atlanta than the existing ITS record.

Jeff I think you hit the nail square on the head; and I would add that I'd be willing to bet within 3-4 years the 325s will no longer be the "car to have". Someone is going to figure out which one is, and when a full-tilt version of that car shows up all hell is going to break loose. That's when you'll see the 3-4 second improvements over ITS times at the longer tracks like RA and VIR.

[Greg Amy]

That's when you'll see the 3-4 second improvements over ITS times at the longer tracks like RA and VIR.

Sure about that? Track records for Speed Touring - *quite* a step in development over ITR - are as follows:

Mid-Ohio, 1:32.946, 2007, Joey Hand in a BMW
Road Atlanta, 1:34.120, 2006, Curran in the RSX (rained in 2007)
VIR, none. "The 2008 event will mark only the second time in history the series has raced at the dazzling 3.27-mile road course." How long ago for the first time?

There's a STEEEEP ramp of diminishing returns as you approach WCTC capabilities...I really doubt that ITR cars can cut the deficit in half between ITS and WCTC. Call it one-third of the way, probably more like one-quarter?

[spnkzss]

So what your saying is ther eis a possibility that once you get to teh ITS/ITR level there may not be much of an improvement. At least not the kinds of improvement that you see going from B to A or A to S? I know everything limits somewhere and it is someone exponential. The ITR have strengths in some places and weakness in other in comparison to the S cars. I guess I jsut didn't see it at a stock S2000 type of level.

[Greg Amy]

At least not the kinds of improvement that you see going from B to A or A to S?

Exactly. There will be some improvement, of course, but I don't expect it to be a quantum leap.

...I jsut didn't see it at a stock S2000 type of level.

Nor do I, really. The ITR's strength, such as it is, would be in a power-to-weight advantage that it would need to be competitive (just as it had versus the E36s in WCTC) and an ease in preparation (it's pretty much all been figured out for this chassis). The ITR in ITR (har-de-har) is 2535#, the second-lightest car in the class; the classified weight for the S2k is 3005#...and that's a lot of pork, oink, oink...the tried-and-true, all-figured-out E36 is 2765#.

In the end borne in a vacuum, which IT rules tend to be, ultimately results in that the car probably can't be competitive, by design.

But it would sure be fun tryin'...

[JeffYoung]

Total guess, but on power/torque tracks, like VIR and RA, I do think you will see a 3-4 second difference between S and R, just as you do between A and S. 250 rwhp is possible in some of these cars, and that is nothing to sneeze at on the long straights at VIR.

[erlrich]

Sure about that? Track records for Speed Touring - *quite* a step in development over ITR - are as follows:

Mid-Ohio, 1:32.946, 2007, Joey Hand in a BMW
Road Atlanta, 1:34.120, 2006, Curran in the RSX (rained in 2007)
VIR, none. "The 2008 event will mark only the second time in history the series has raced at the dazzling 3.27-mile road course." How long ago for the first time?

Yeahbut, what do you think those times would look like if they had been on Hoosiers? I'm sure those guys are getting everything they can out of those RA-1s, but in the end they're still RA-1s. I'd still be willing to bet that by 2010 ARRC ITR times will be in the 36s.

[JoshS]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?

[spnkzss]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?

Right now as far as track record goes at Summit Point

ITS - 1:24.886
ITR - 1:25.596
T2 - 1:24.354

No I didn't get the ITS/ITR reversed. I know this is going to get decimated due to the new pavement.

[erlrich]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?

Josh - here's what I could find for track records:

VIR:
T2 - 2:12.63
ITS- 2:14.24

Mid-Ohio:
T2 - 1:42.09
ITS- 1:43.16

RA:
T2 - 1:38.40 (track record not found, this was the best time I could find browsing results for the past 4 years)
ITS- 1:39.56

If you could do as well or slightly better than T2 it looks like you would be in pretty good shape. That said, do you believe your Z3 is going to be one of the front runners in ITR (not saying it won't, just wondering)?

[JoshS]

Josh - here's what I could find for track records:
That said, do you believe your Z3 is going to be one of the front runners in ITR (not saying it won't, just wondering)?

Beats me. But I trust the process for the most part.

[dj10]

Beats me. But I trust the process for the most part.

Do you have many ITR cars out west?

[Z3_GoCar]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?

Hey Josh,

Check this out: http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=672769

0.2 seconds off of a T1 Vette

James

[JoshS]

Means nothing James ... you have to look at track records. In '06, we ran 1:31s in our T2 Subarus at Willow Springs, and the fastest T2 car was in the 1:30s. Obviously that T1 driver was not exactly flying.

Another example ... I was even closer than John was to a T1 Corvette at Infineon last year in the ITR car:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=643230

If you watch my in-car video from that race, I was on his butt the whole time, except, of course, on the straights. And this was when I still had the stock exhaust and cats and muffler!

[JoshS]

Do you have many ITR cars out west?

Not yet. In '07 we had 2, both brand-new builds, here in NorCal and at least 1 (John Norris, in an ex-ITS BMW) in SoCal. I know of at least 2 more being built here in NorCal right now, and at least one under consideration in the Pacific Northwest.

[dj10]

Not yet. In '07 we had 2, both brand-new builds, here in NorCal and at least 1 (John Norris, in an ex-ITS BMW) in SoCal. I know of at least 2 more being built here in NorCal right now, and at least one under consideration in the Pacific Northwest.

There were 11 ITR cars that I could count between Pittsburgh and Atlanta, this doesn't count the 300zx or any other ITR cars that might be around New England area. That would be 2 - 944S2, 8- BMW E36 325's and a Z3. I'm sure hoping for more fresh meat this year. Oh and 1 Boxster in the process of being built.

[pimpm3]

I am the only one that I know of right now building a Celica GT-S for ITR. The car is almost to the point where I can start testing it. The car is by no means finished nor do I feel that it is maxed out. I have a set of Koni 2817's for the car, Camber plates front and rear and a speedway engineering rear bar, I have pretty much all of the components for a maxed out suspension. I have not weighed the car yet, but if I can make the process weight of 2380, the car should be pretty fast. With a header, an Intake and a 2.5 Inch Exhaust the car put down 185.5 at the wheels on a dyno dynamics dyno. I still have not done the computer but I feel that I can pick up a few extra whp with that mod.

If a 300ZX can make 250whp ( I don't know if that is even possible) and weighs 3250 that is 13 pounds per whp. The Celica at weight currently is at 12.83 lbs per WHP.

I am waiting for someone to bring out an RSX. I have seen k20's (RSX type-S Engine) make over 220 at the wheels with headers, and intake and K-pro (computer) all day long some even make more. At process weight that comes out to 12.11 lb per hp, even better then the Celica.

My friends Type-R with bolt ons and a computer made 197 WHP at process weight that is 12.83 lbs per hp exactly the same as the Celica.

If a 328 can make 225 at the wheels (my 1995 M3 with an Intake and an exhaust made 225 whp) then it would have 12.6 lb per hp so it is right in line with the Celica, RSX and the Type-R.

I think that part of the atraction of ITR is all of the different types of cars in the same class. A BMW makes power differently from a, Mustang which makes power differently from a 300ZX which is different from a 944, etc, etc... Obviously the lack of torque is a big issue for the high reving cars but that should be offset by their relative lack of abuse on brakes and tires. I guess we will have to see how it all works when we get the car on track next month.

[JeffYoung]

That is VERY impressive power for the 2ZZ motor. Good work on that. Maybe the car does have a solid chance...