OH MY GOD, V8's in ITR

[JLawton]

Bob, I must say i disagree with your subjective concerns, but that's cool, opinions are good!.
First, your assumptions lead me to think that it's not the cars you have issues with, it's the drivers...as you repeatedly state you don't want to be at the end of the straight when the Mustang brakes to late. Well, EVERY car out there is brake limited. some more than others. It's up to the driver to operate his car withing, and at the edge of, it's limits. .

Ding, ding, ding. Right on the nose.

it's not the cars that are the problem, it's the attitudes. I've driven with every class of closed wheels in SCCA. The only problems are with people's attitudes. Remember when SM first came out?? NOBODY wanted to run with them. Some STILL don't.

Don't shun a car becaue of your lack of displacement!!

[Bob Roth]

I am not asking you to change your minds, just to see where I am coming from. Back in 1990, I built a Chevy Citation X-11 and was on the other end of the equation. I had the heavy, not great handling car with a rocket engine. Racing the RX-2 and 2002 tii was an exercise of trying to get it into the turn, and rocketing by them to the next one. Being the only one among them was manageable and we played well together. I don't think it would have been so much that way had there been another 2 or three X-11's in the race.

To suggest I think its about the driver is wrong. Its about the problem of having cars with inherent performance metrics differences but the same lap times compete in the same class. I think the V8 cars will run completely different than the 944's, BMW's, Porsches and Tegs that will make up the bulk of ITR.

What's relevent here is that there are a ton of old stangs and F cars out there. If so there could be a lot of people who given the chance to race a pony car in IT for the same cost that they could build a miata will give it a go. If so, we shall see what the result is. I encourage any ITR owners to speak their opinion on this change. My position is, give them their own ITGT class.

[rcc85]

Every class in IT has cars that race differently. That's part of what makes it an interesting category. An ITB Volvo races differently than an ITB VW. There are big differences in weight and power between those cars but they manage to race together pretty well.

I would hate to see ITR turn into Spec BMW.

I don't see that the V8 pony cars will race much differently than the (already classed in ITR) V6 pony cars.

If it seems that the performance of the V8 pony cars exceeds the parameters of ITR, then they won't get classed. If they fall within the ITR parameters, they should get classed. If they fall below the ITR parameters, let's put them in ITS !!

Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona

[dj10]

Every straight, I gotta outbreak them, every turn, I am concerned about getting clobbered by one who just braked a bit too late. I don't mind sharing the track with them, I just don't want to be competing with them and trading paint for trophies. I think the typical 944, 328, 911, and S2000 driver would agree.

Bob, this is a main concern of mine also. I've had to deal with AS drivers using me for a brake and a tun in point @ Summit Point when I was running ITS. It is unfortunate that we cannot control the mind set of these racers or any racer for that matter. Is it not a fact that we have to watch out for unsportsman like drivers where ever we go & what ever class we run in now?

[JeffYoung]

A good discussion. I do agree with Bob that when I race CCPS against SRFs and SMs it can be frustrating but interesting in its own way because the cars make speed differently.

Bob, again, we can agree to disagree. Do round up some other ITR drivers and see what they think, and submit your comments to the ITAC.

Thanks for the thoughts on this. It is appreciated.

[shwah]

You guys might want to take a look at an ITB race with VWs and Volvos (or the odd Fiero) in it. These cars make lap times in very different ways and we have lots of fun racing together.

From an outsider's prospective (in terms of ITR) this seems to be a disagreement about what IT racing is (competitive racing with many different cars vs. competitive racing with similar cars) at best, or elitism at worst. Neither justify keeping these cars out of ITR.

[Super Swift]

I have built a 944 S2 which raced in ITR this past season. From my perspective I welcome the V8’s. V8’s would add interest to the class. I would love to race against a 68 Camaro in Penske livery w/ ITR on the side. That would be awesome. Although I am NOT interested in building a Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Capri, or whatever, I feel that they need to be given the chance to run in ITR.

I do have a big concern for RX-8’s being classified at a weight that would create an overdog in ITR. There is a concerted effort by the RX-8 proponents to have this car classed at an outlandishly low weight. At the ARRC enduro an RX-8 which competed as a T3 at the runoffs (well below IT prep) was turning times that were exceptionally competitive for ITR.

Fear the Rotary not the V8’s.

[Knestis]

Please don't mistake your frustration with struggling to compete against some type of car for evidence that said car should not be listed. Different horses for different courses and variety is an important aspect of IT, that is rapidly being lost in our sport to the "Spec-ification" movement.

K

[Rabbit07]

Fear the Rotary not the V8’s.

Indeed. However, that particlular Rx-8 did have springs on it that were not on it at the Run-offs. The car is well driven to boot.

As far as cars racing differently, I see that in every class. I run a Neon for gods sake! I blow off everyone down the striaghts and then hold them up in the corners. You just learn to drive with the people you race with.

Let the V8s play, its good for the growth of ITR.

[Ron]

I agree with Knestis, and I drive a "heavy" mustang in ITB with poor brakes and a solid axle. I don't feel that we screw up an ITB race. It soulds like those in ITR who fear the V-8 have failed to look at other classes in IT. I might just have to build a V-8 car to make a mess and screw everyone up. I just watched the T-2 runoff race and you want to talk about a collection of cars! They looked like they were having fun.
And just for the record, I hate rumming with SM!

[RacerBill]

I do not race in ITR, so I know my thoughts should not count as much as those who do race in that class. That said, my only concern is that once in the class, the owners of the V8's will start asking for mods to make them 'safer'. As I recall, American Sedan started out as an IT class. I don't recall which came first, the request for mods (bigger brakes....) or the move out of IT so it could become a National class. But in any event, my only concern would be to head off any potential rules creep.

Other than that...bring 'em on! The more cars the better.....

[Ron Earp]

I do not race in ITR, so I know my thoughts should not count as much as those who do race in that class. That said, my only concern is that once in the class, the owners of the V8's will start asking for mods to make them 'safer'.

Other than that...bring 'em on! The more cars the better.....

I don't think that is going to happen in today's IT. ITR is under the IT rules set with a strong ITAC that is now forewarned. Also, bear in mind the IT trim Pony cars will be making less power and torque than an IT build so maybe stresses will be less. If something like that does happen it won't be because of the cars, it'll be because of a failure in the ITAC/BoD.

Besides, the cars are in the same weight range as the 300zx and the 330is. I think the assumption that domestics can't handle abuse (racing) might be a bit presumptuous in this day and age. In the SE there are many examples of the mid-90s Mustangs as track cars on stock suspension bits and brakes doing just fine.

Be that as it may, no car is guaranteed to be competitive in IT, Pony cars included. I think those that want to race them will be racing them based on personal interest in the marquee. While they might be after wins if they come, I think the prudent racer will be selecting other cars if they are after consistent wins.

[dickita15]

my only concern would be to head off any potential rules creep.

That is best ensured by a vigilant and vocal constituency. We have that and it is us.

[Knestis]

That is best ensured by a vigilant and vocal constituency. We have that and it is us.

AMEN.

They may ask but the real issue is the ITAC not folding on the safety card bluff.

K

[Bob Roth]

Look, I raced against one those stang's and used to race him all the time. Cracked brake rotors per race were common, I think he even blew up a new one in one race. Granted it was Blackhawk which is about the hardest track on brakes I know but don't be surprised to see somebody requesting brake upgrades. Same thing true with rear ends. My opinion is Ford put in all the power but none of the goodness. Heck, I suspect a 928 might be a better car.......

[Ron Earp]

The beauty if IT.....

Did the Mustang racer have three ducts to each front wheel - one feeding the caliper, one the inside of the rotor, and one feeding a wrap around hat for the outside of the rotor?

One has to work hard to make a IT racer out of some of the cars. I know my Z has these allowed IT-legal improvements and it could stand to use some more.

You don't make much of a case of prohibiting a car because you feel the racer might not put in the effort to properly prep the car. This is the risk for ANY IT car out on the track at any time. You never know what your competitors have done for prep, but that has nothing to do with classing a car or preventing a car from being classed.

As far as a rear end, well, a Ford 8.8" is a far sight stronger than any other rear end I know of in ITS or ITR. If built correctly these won't break and are extremely under-stressed. If you are concerned about a Ford 8.8" rear, or a 7.5" rear for that matter, then I suggest you'll need to do more research to find a weakness in the car to prevent classification.

[pimpm3]

I am in the process of building a 2000 Celica GTS for ITR and I say bring on the V8's. I am used to sharing the track with all manner of cars when I raced my ITA MR2, and I look forward to being on track with an interesting variety of cars with my Celica.

I am not worried about a performance advantage from the Mustangs and Camaros per say. Yes they will generate twice as much torque but the Celica and the Type-R car will handle better and have better brakes then the pony cars. On top of that you would be surprised how well 180 WHP will move a 2380 lb car.

[Knestis]

... don't be surprised to see somebody requesting brake upgrades. Same thing true with rear ends. ...

Denied.

Denied.

(Insert canned response and smarty-pants postscript here)

K

[Ron Earp]

On top of that you would be surprised how well 180 WHP will move a 2380 lb car.

Good to hear someone feels that way. I don't think I'll be too surprised on that at all - I see how fast these 175 rwhp 240Z move and they do quite well indeed. Light makes right everywhere!

[Andy Bettencourt]

(Insert canned response and smarty-pants postscript here)

K

Letter forthcoming:

"Please allow the Mustang the brake package from the 19xx to avoid dangerous situations caused by brake fade due to undersized factory units. Many of my friends would be racing these cars if we could get them to stop consistantly all race long. If you don't allow something like this we will be forced to jump to NASA."

Answer:

"Not consistant with class philosophy"

Maybe we can improve that...