Cage photos in Tech Center is it legal?

[Speed Raycer]

But they are not within the minimum cage structure. The front tubes are optional.

(First off... I understand your point)

Is there a definition of "minimal cage structure" or any combination of those words? No. If the 7th/8th points are optional to the minimal cage structure then once the option is chosen, they become part of the cage structure... just like the option of a NASCAR bar (although once that options taken it becomes the required tube)..

[ddewhurst]

***Could you put both bars for your 8 points on the drivers side?***


>>>I think yes.<<<

Please read 2008 one more time. Measure twice cut once.

Other than this comment ^ DD is lurking with this thread.

Have Fun
David

[shwah]

Geeze. Twice in one thread, on the same item, in the same friggin paragraph of the good book. I really need to pay more attention to the details than I have been lately.

It does say one tube on each side. I still don't like the resulting reduction in acheivable strength of anti wheel intrusion efforts in the new rule.

[JimLill]

Geeze. Twice in one thread, on the same item, in the same friggin paragraph of the good book. I really need to pay more attention to the details than I have been lately.

It does say one tube on each side. I still don't like the resulting reduction in acheivable strength of anti wheel intrusion efforts in the new rule.

That pix is of pre 08 car taken early last year. So OK for me, but still a less than optimal rule for new people IMO.

[arpenn]

Here is another question for you guys. This car we bought already has a logbook for scca last date 2004 I think, and a nasa logbook last dated 2006. We are going to be rebuilding part of the cage. Since this car already has a logbook wouldn't the old rules apply to it, not the 2008 changes?

[JamesB]

Nope, you still need to make the door bar changes and any other required change. I think from 04 to 08 the door bars and the window net are the only changes effecting the cage design.

[spnkzss]

My understanding is you need to meet the '07 cage rules. If your first log book is issued after Jan. 1 2008 then it must meet the '08 cage rules.

[shwah]

That pix is of pre 08 car taken early last year. So OK for me, but still a less than optimal rule for new people IMO.

Sorry. This discussion seems to be covering two topics. One is what you could do TODAY per the 08 rules. That is the part that I keep making mistakes on.

I don't see anything in the photos that is not legal per my understanding of the 07 rules.

I agree that an 07 or older log booked car needs to meet the door bar requirements, main hoop reinforcing requirements etc. to be 'current'. Other items, such as tubing type, and this new wording for the optional front cage members however are 'grandfathered', based on what was required when the log book was issued.

[arpenn]

We will be adding nascar door bars on both sides, a tube under the dash connecting both sides and some additional bracing. We will probably also add the two forward braces that attach to the firewall. I just wanted to know if we would be held to the 07 or 08 rules for the cage?

[eprodrx7]

Grumpy,
I'd bet that you are the guy that used to rat people out in school and supported the 12 men on the field call last night. Complete and total BS! Anybody that would exploit this misswording to thier advantage doesn't belong in a club sport like ours. Spend your key strokes doing something usefull instead of coming here and being a PIA. Yes I did Jim's cage and many more like it. Other then your ability to read what qualifies you to even coment on this issus? David I will look forward to seeing in Fastrack a change from the wording "one tube" to "tubing", problem solved, Grumpy go have some shrimp...

[shwah]

John,

How exactly are we supposed to correct mistakes in our rules if people don't read them and point out items like this?

We all assumed that nothing changed in this area, and my understanding was that no changes were intended. HOWEVER, a change was made in the words. All we can go by is the words in the rule book. I for one appreciate it when someone finds something like this, so that we can make it right.

[spnkzss]

Could you put both bars for your 8 points on the drivers side?

2008 Cage Rules.

9.4.C.3. Cars competing in Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring may extend one tube, from each front down tube, forward to the firewall but not penetrating the firewall.

So the answer to my question is no.

[eprodrx7]

Chris,
Maybe I was a little harsh but it just erks me when I see people wringing out the rule book for the sake of argument. Would we not all have been better off if a letter to the CRB was sent instead of one guys flexing his GCR reading skills and accusing people of building cheater cars? If you see something amiss in the rules go ahead and point it out but don't tell me my car is out of spec. Especially on something like this that is increasing the safety of a car.

[Grumpy]

John,

I never ratted out anyone at school, but I do support the 12 man decision. Your personal attack on me is outrageous and uncalled for. It seems to me that you are the type of person that makes things the way you want and the rules are only a guideline to your private world.

I wonder how many other times you have done something outside the rules because you know better. ALL rules carry the same weight. Just because you don't approve doesn't make it in compliance with the rules.

The current rule says ONE bar forward and it means ONE bar forward. If YOU think the cage specifications are unsafe, then YOU need to appeal for change. Don't hide behind "it's safer this way." If and when the rule is changed it will be enforced as it is newly written.

Yes I am a rules nerd. That's my job to the interpret the rules, and it is done as it is written, not as you would like to see them. "They meant to say this" has no part in rules compliance.

Let's see, what are my qualifications?

Former SCCA National Driver License Holder.
EMRA Class Champion
SCCA Regional Champion
NARRC Class Champion
Former SCCA National Scrutineer
Former SCCA Board of Directors Regional Member
Former SCCA Starter
Former SCCA Flagger
Former SCCA Emergency Services
NASA-MA Race Director for Compliance
Chief Race Director - NASA Nationals
Grassroots Magazine's "One of the 20 Things that Rocked our Racing World." February 2008 Issue.


As long as we are sharing, what are your qualifications during your eighteen years of existence?

Oh, by the way, you can take your shrimp and..... Oh never mind.

[JimLill]

So, what prompted the change from 2007 to 2008?

-Jim Lill
Simply a Race Car Owner/Driver

[Grumpy]

So, what prompted the change from 2007 to 2008?

-Jim Lill
Simply a Race Car Owner/Driver

If you are asking me, I have absolutely no clue.

[shwah]

A complete re-write of the cage rules prompted the, possibly unintended, change.

[lateapex911]

I'd agree with that assessment. The cage rules had, over time, morphed into a combination of requirements that didn't always make sense, and often precluded inter category movement.

A rewrite was in order, but obviously, that was a tricky...how to go forward while respecting the past. i suspect that there were a zillion issues with concepts and wording, and this one slipped through.

[ITC Racer]

Are the pics that used to be in the tech center still available somewhere??

[eprodrx7]

Jim,
I've won a lot of races and lost more. I've pro raced and was at LRP in the womb. Worked corners and shagged cones. I've PMed you the details as it seems like bragging to list in public, but suffice to say I've been around more then 18 years.
Not only am I able to do all of the jobs you have listed but have the experience to make informed decisions and know how it will effect the drivers on the front row as well as the guys at the back. This is my biggest problem with guys like yourself. The torturing of the rules to give the impression that they "have" something on those "driver" types and making decisions and rules without having to "live" by them. It perpetuates the "us and them" feeling between workers and drivers.

I apologize to you as my remarks are not directed at you personally but more at the group of people that in my eyes you represent. I'm sure our paths will cross in the future and I welcome you to come by my pit for a beer and a chat. I'm more then happy to get involved and share the knowledge of a lifetime of racing to hopefully make things better.