SFI "single point of relese" - a new twist

[Knestis]

From http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/r...point-harnesses

Sternum Strap for Seat Belt SystemSternum Strap for Seat Belt System.
This Sternum Strap can be added to any model racing shoulder harness that we carry. (Photo shows it with 50516 roll bar mount shoulder harness).



This system is designed to hold the harness together under impact.

Just add this sternum strap to the shopping cart as well as the shoulder harness that you would like to buy, and we will customize the harness by attaching the sternum strap to the harness. And yes, it maintains its SFI rating and the dated SFI tag is attached.


Oh, really??

K

[JohnRW]

Does SFI discuss "sternum straps" in 16.1 (Driver Restraint Assemblies) or 16.5 (Stock Car Driver Restraint Assemblies) ? That's an interesting question.

Is the manufacturer taking some liberties, or do 16.1 or 16.5 allow sternum straps ?

[Gary L]

There may be others, but Impact Racing sells the same type device. Unfortunately, their catalog doesn't address it's effect on the harness' SFI rating.

[Grumpy]

The issue is who requires "single point", SFI rating or the racing organization? I would guess the racing organizatiuon because they say must meet SFI spec AND have single point of release.

In this instance sternum belts would have no impact on the SFI approval.

[JimLill]

add............ some people say they cause problems on severe frontal impact besides.

[Grumpy]

add............ some people say they cause problems on severe frontal impact besides.
[/b]

I have heard this.

I am not for nor against sternum belts as I have not researched the issue..

[Knestis]

...but it's COMPLETELY disingenuous of SFI to say, "That extra pull on a cord makes the Isaac SO dangerous that we just can't allow it," when they are willing to certify a harness that requires an extra action to undo it.

We keep coming back to the egress issue as the rationale for the architecture restrictions in 38.1. Evidence suggests that egress is not important enough to SFI for them to address across the board - only as it might allow alternate designs into the SFI-allowed H&N market. That's arbitrary in the extreme.

No wonder Gregg gets pissy sometimes. The word games and intellectual dishonesty are amazing!

Jim - Have you researched the issue of the dangers presented by the Isaac pin release mechanism more or less than sternum straps?

K

[lateapex911]

..

No wonder Gregg gets pissy sometimes. The word games and intellectual dishonesty are amazing!

K [/b]

Not to mention that, years ago, I remember him posting that he had been in contact with SFI and had gotten the "Talk to the hand" kind of response, LOL.

[gsbaker]

...... some people say they cause problems on severe frontal impact besides.
[/b]

You should see the videos of the harness pull tests.

[gsbaker]

I thought everyone was aware that SFI harness specs allowed for 2 points of release.

Yes, Kirk, this entire rules thing--be they from SFI or sanctioning bodies--has been a joke from day one. Irrational and not worthy of respect.

"Pissy"?

[tom91ita]

i thought Neil Bonnet was injured due to a sternum strap when he quit racing for a few years. seems like he had a broken sternum that was attributed to one of those things.

but if you google sternum strap injuries, it is not hard to find something like this:

http://www.circletrack.com/featuredvehicle...fety/index.html

3. No sternum straps: When they were first developed, sternum straps were used to keep the shoulder belts closer to the middle of the chest and keep them from sliding off the shoulders. What has been found since then is that these straps are neck injuries waiting to happen.[/b]

or this from http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/na...ion/index.html;

The sternum strap was initially designed to spread belt-tension loads across the chest and include the sternum as a load-dispersing member, but tests have shown it is limited in its effect in a high-deflection (head-on to 30-45 degrees) crash. During side impacts, however, its effectiveness in equalizing shoulder belt loading is increased. There are also questions regarding the mounting of the sternum buckle, including the fact the buckle is close to the driver’s chin and could be an obstacle to exiting the car quickly following a crash.[/b]

[JimLill]

Jim - Have you researched the issue of the dangers presented by the Isaac pin release mechanism more or less than sternum straps?
[/b]

Haven't researched either really, just was told before I ever heard of an HNR that a sternum strap was bad news.

[Grumpy]

I thought everyone was aware that SFI harness specs allowed for 2 points of release.

Yes, Kirk, this entire rules thing--be they from SFI or sanctioning bodies--has been a joke from day one. Irrational and not worthy of respect.

"Pissy"?
[/b]

So as I read the SCCA GCR even though the belt is SFI 16.1 it cannot have a sternum belt as it would violate the "single point" rule.

[Gary L]

So as I read the SCCA GCR even though the belt is SFI 16.1 it cannot have a sternum belt as it would violate the "single point" rule.
[/b]

I believe that is correct.

[Dave Zaslow]

About three sets of belts ago I had this:

http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/product...17&prod_id=1585

Note that Simpson doesn't mention anything about SFI 16.1, but the SFI tag is shown on the shoulder strap.

My next set didn't have them after I read a caution about the sternum strap on the bellmotorsports site.

I never gave a thought to the second point of release.

DZ

[JohnRW]

...but it's COMPLETELY disingenuous of SFI to say, "That extra pull on a cord makes the Isaac SO dangerous that we just can't allow it," when they are willing to certify a harness that requires an extra action to undo it.
[/b]

If that is the case, then IMO there would be a double-standard.

Anybody got a copy of the SFI belt standards that I posted above (16.1 and 16.5) ? Do they allow sternum straps ? Do they mention sternum straps ?

It's the manufacturer who sews the tag onto the belt. It's the manufacturer who certifies that it meets the standard. I'll ask this again, since it's way too easy to scream "hypocricy" without digging for data: Is this a manufacturer "playing fast and loose", tagging a harness with an SFI tag, or is it a double standard by SFI ?

[Andy Bettencourt]

If that is the case, then IMO there would be a double-standard.

Anybody got a copy of the SFI belt standards that I posted above (16.1 and 16.5) ? Do they allow sternum straps ? Do they mention sternum straps ?

It's the manufacturer who sews the tag onto the belt. It's the manufacturer who certifies that it meets the standard. I'll ask this again, since it's way too easy to scream "hypocricy" without digging for data: Is this a manufacturer "playing fast and loose", tagging a harness with an SFI tag, or is it a double standard by SFI ?
[/b]

It would seem that SFI could never give a sternum strap an SFI tag. Sitting there on the desk it might meet spec but when used as designed, how could it?

I agree with Krik.

[Grumpy]

...but it's COMPLETELY disingenuous of SFI to say, "That extra pull on a cord makes the Isaac SO dangerous that we just can't allow it," when they are willing to certify a harness that requires an extra action to undo it

It does seem odd.


It's the manufacturer who sews the tag onto the belt. It's the manufacturer who certifies that it meets the standard. I'll ask this again, since it's way too easy to scream "hypocricy" without digging for data: Is this a manufacturer "playing fast and loose", tagging a harness with an SFI tag, or is it a double standard by SFI ?

No "fast and loose" here. An additional point of release is allowed by SFI 16.1. It is up to the racing organization to declare single point if they want to require it, and then police it.

[lateapex911]

It apears to me that Wesco is playing with fire. It appears from the pictures and the description, that they are taking a harness and adding the sternum strap. Thats what the description says they do, and if you look at the picture, note that the in car unit is sewn in a different location, and it looks like they have taken the SFI tag and actually removed it and resewn it on their sternum addition! In the other picture, it looks like the SFI tag is in it's original position, with the sternum strap sewn below it.


EDIT: After posting, I see Jim posted at the same time, essentially. While I was searching for the SFI spec, he states the aloowance for multiple points of release exist.

So, I stand corrected. However, I'd be interested in learning HOW the straps are tested. Is it a simple pull to failure? Or does it involve anatomical fitting, etc? I would imagine that the addition of the sternum strap could affect the test if it is more than a pull to failure, and the modifying party is playing with fire.

Another anomoly I spotted while on the SFI site was the 38.1 spec has no dating. Once bought, the item is good forever, according to SFI. But, HANS states the straps must be replaced every two years. How is this actually being handled? Logic suggests that if HANS requires replacement of a part of the item, it must, at some point, fail to meet 38.1 specs, correct?

[Grumpy]

It apears to me that Wesco is playing with fire. It appears from the pictures and the description, that they are taking a harness and adding the sternum strap. Thats what the description says they do, and if you look at the picture, note that the in car unit is sewn in a different location, and it looks like they have taken the SFI tag and actually removed it and resewn it on their sternum addition! In the other picture, it looks like the SFI tag is in it's original position, with the sternum strap sewn below it.

They are asking...beggin' actually, to be sued from here to italy and back. (IMHO)
[/b]

From the Westco web site,

The sternum strap is sewn into your shoulder harness straps (restraint) at the factory, so allow for a few days lead time on your order.