Open ECU rule and CIS

[AGR77]

Hi Guys!
I found this forum seaching on the net.
I was lookin for a solution for the new computer rule. I race a 1992 2.0l 16v jetta in IT-A here on Puerto Rico.
My car have the MOTRONIC CSI . I know this sistem can be reprogramed with a chip. But everybody knows is not the same as a stand alone computer.
I have read all of your post looking for a answer for my quest to see what I can do to cheat the rule.
But it seems that there is no option. I even send an e-mail to scca about this rule and they told me that the only thing that I could change is the ECU. So that means that I an stock whith the CIS because the injectors can`t be changed.
But if any of you can give me any info on how to make this motronic sistem even better please email me.

Abraham Gomez
IT-A Jetta # 77
CCCPR / PRRRA

nitro4tec@hotmailcom

[Bildon]

I know this system can be reprogrammed with a chip. But everybody knows is not the same as a stand alone computer.[/b]

Well it should & can be.

Also Chris's repeated assertions here are spot on correct. The VW 8v is not fuel limited. Also, CIS is not the bottle neck. The lower intake runner and valves are. The CIS is capable of something like 170hp before you have to switch to a larger unit.

You'll make more power learning to do a "factory" 3 angle valve job than you will installing a MoTec.

[lateapex911]

Ahhh..the voice of reason.

You should post more often Bill.

[AGR77]

Hello !!
I know that the CIS sistem is good , I have a 1988 mk2 GTI 16v 2.0l, is turbo. I made it my self. I am runnin on 20 psi of boost whith this sistem.
Now I am trying to fine tune the cis for my IT-A Jetta.
If you guys have any info for upgradind the sistem I will apreciated!!!!

Puerto Rico Racing!!!

[shwah]

The system does not need upgrading. Just tune the air:fuel ratio properly in the rpm band you race in.

The easiest way is with a coolant temperature sensor based fuel enrichment device (a resistor in line with the cts). Go to a dyno, hook up a 0-5k pot in series with the sensor (use a switch or relay to jump around it when starting/idling/low load). Make some runs and turn the knob. You will find best power around 12.5-12.7 air/fuel in my experience.

If you want to monitor the system, also measure the dpr current when you do this. Whatever the current is at your 'good' setting, you can use that as a check in the field to see if things are still set where you want by measuring the dpr current at full load. Just mount a cheap-O ammeter to the dash and watch it down the straight.

There are more complex solutions, but this one works better than those that spend the extra time and money would like to admit.

[AGR77]

Hi guys!!!
Thanks SHWAH for the info. I will be taking advice about the air/fuel mixture when I go to the dyno with my car, and about putting a meter on the dash.
just to let yo know my engine runs around 14.5 air/fuel all the race, and I know that is very hot and I am loosing a lot of HP.
let you know when I take the car to the dyno how it went!!!

[shwah]

If you use a meter to monitor dpr current when racing, note that if the meter fails it will break the signal to the dpr. Plan to have an over ride switch in parallel to restore the signal path if this happens.

[GTIspirit]

Don't beleive the hype guys.

No fuel injection system will change the airflow capabilities of your motor - which defines the power capability. There are proven methods of properly adjusting the fueling for CIS and CIS-E systems to optimize the AFR. The rules allow you to run timing that suits your needs. There is no reason that you cannot reach the same power level with CIS as with a standalone system, within the restrictions of the IT rules.

I totally agree with Chris. CIS and CIS-E can flow plenty of fuel. CIS seems to be pretty robust, CIS-E seems to be finicky and has a bad rap. As long as the CIS-(E) system is in good working order there is no reason to change.

But, if you do want to change, I think a Megasquirt system that can control the CIS frequency valve or CIS-E differential pressure regulator would be the hot ticket. You could even use the CIS-E throttle plate potentiometer as a MAF sensor. It's not like fuel economy is a concern when racing, so why not spray fuel continuously and not have to worry about injection timing? Just optimize spark timing and AFR.

[AGomez77]

Hi guys!
I read all off this about the ecu and the cis-e.
But I have a question? Can the 50mm intake manifold on a 16v can be used?
because the rule says , The original, standard intake manifold shall be maintained.
Are you guys using it???

Abraham Gomez
Puerto Rico racing
GTI IT-A #77

[shwah]

No the 16v cannot use the European spec intake manifold.

[AGomez77]

No the 16v cannot use the European spec intake manifold.

thank you shwah for the info.
But some of my competition use it and I still win them.
Just wanted to make sure.

Now I am putting together a 88 1.8 16v GTI. Any recomendations?

[shwah]

If they are racing with the Improved Touring rule set they are cheating. That is a pretty blatant cheat, as it is very obvious to see any time you glance at the car with the hood up.

[AGomez77]

If they are racing with the Improved Touring rule set they are cheating. That is a pretty blatant cheat, as it is very obvious to see any time you glance at the car with the hood up.

yes! I know but he is a bad driver. so I dont pay much attention to it.
for now I am working on my GTI to see if I have it ready for the summer.

[AGomez77]

Here`s some pic of the Jetta I use to drive!!

[VWralley]

bringin this back up! wondering if anyone has taken advantage of the new ecu rules. I am intending to do it on my 90 gti, it may not offer a huge performance advantage, but i freaking hate digi2 more than anything in this life im pretty sure, so its a welcomed change for me! Simplicity and reliability is my main reason for making the change.

[markw]

Optimizing a standalone injection system can be very tedious and requires the patience of a saint. Without a dyno and a wide band 02 sensor system similar to the innovate, it would be doubtful that you could tune to optimimze the engine much beyond stock or even have worse driveability. There are so many simple ways CIS or Electronic fuel systems can be adjusted to add more fuel. As stated, until you can improve air flow you are not going to find more torque and hp with a stock cam, compression, and valve ports. I am opposed to even allowing standalone systems in IT. This rule could drive a wedge between the haves and the have nots. It sounds like the rule wording is a bit up in the air. I'd recommend holding off on buying a tuning a standalone system until the wording is cleared up.

[VWralley]

not sure if you are talking to me directly or just making point(which are totally valid), but personally, i found tuning a standalone not very difficult. i have done megasquirt conversions on about 15 cars, so for me it is not very tough to dial it in. the last 16v i tuned didnt make any more horsepower on the dyno with a pro tuner. so a dyno isnt necessary if you spend enough time with a wideband an a good long hill.

for me its more about getting rid of the stock 20 some odd year old wiring and getting rid of the headache of trying to figure out a stock setup, more than making more hp.

[pfcs]

I have done the homework to understand and edit full load DIGI II files and can provide a plug and play ECM for 8V Digifant apps that provides excellent results for legal engines with fully exploited airflow airflow gains. Contact me off line if intersted. Why swim upstream?
phil

[lateapex911]

I am opposed to even allowing standalone systems in IT.

Important point regarding personal opinion...

This rule could drive a wedge between the haves and the have nots.

Another opinion, and that's fine.

It sounds like the rule wording is a bit up in the air. I'd recommend holding off on buying a tuning a standalone system until the wording is cleared up.

Huh? Now a recommendation based on?? Where does THAT bit of info come from??

According to your source, when will the wording be "cleared up"??

[VWralley]

besides a few questions to be certain, and a few times reading it over, i thought it was worded pretty well really. but im new so that may not be saying much haha