VIR SARRC/MARRS Proposal

[grjones1]

"And I thought you were just behind on the postings here. Take a look at post #36. I think youl'll see a recommendation for a 2-day event that someone else here posted as their own a few days later (grjones, post 49). I don't see anybody demanding anything here. I see you insulting those of us who represent the DC Region drivers as well as those who represent the DC Region's volunteers. Perhaps you should go back and read Marshall's posts 44 (which was a response to your post 33 about you and NCR drawing lines in the sand as well) as well as 67. ..." Ginsberg

I've been away and I'd like to see the "shit-slinging" stopped also, but Ginsberg for someone who'd like to see the insults stop you don't appear to want to stop yourself. Forgive me if my 2-day schedule suggestion (post #49) repeated your 2-day suggestion (post #36). I realy didn't intend to steal your thunder or "post it as my own." Who the hell cares whose idea it is if its an idea that works? And "how about" doesn't suggest I was treating the idea as my original. Maybe it meant "consider this idea again."

As a matter of fact WDCR used to run that kind of schedule decades ago probably before you were racing so before either of us take credit for it let's remember that.

Man if you can't find more ways to piss somebody off I don't know who can. If your tact was the one taken when this thing was trying to be worked out for 2008, I can understand why we're not going back next year. And remember you represent the ITA people not all the DC drivers - Express your concerns with civility when talking to other region people or speak as an individual and not as a DC rep.

Grouping is a problem everywhere now that participation numbers are up and the problems are never resolved to everyone's complete satisfaction. But we race; we don't find a way not to race because of some overwrought egos.

Now let's stop insulting each other and find a way to restore the SARRC/MARRS event.

G. Robert Jones
Concerned Individual DC Driver
None of the opinions expressed here represent WDCR or its members other than my own

[Gregg]

As a matter of fact WDCR used to run that kind of schedule decades ago probably before you were racing so before either of us take credit for it let's remember that. Man if you can't find more ways to piss somebody off I don't know who can.
[/b]

Hopefully everyone will excuse me for just a moment, while I try to perform an intervention of sorts:

G. Robert, perhaps you should have taken Mr. Parker's recent suggestions to you to heart, but since you haven't....

I don't really need a lesson in civility from such a prominent contributor to this thread or this thread and I think you'll find many people who have no problems with my civility here, in the paddock, or at Competition Committee meetings. Nor will you find any besides yourself who question my dedication to ITA drivers, or our volunteers, the MARRS series as a whole, or the DC Region. As an adult (and at almost 40 and with a demeanor to match I think I can call myself that), I, and many others here, do not appreciate being spoken to as if we are small children. Perhaps the diplomat (not bureaucrat) in me has shown me the restraint from belittling you in a public forum as you have done to so many others, and you, after so many years should know that you reap what you sow. Diplomacy helps to further a dialog. Your M.O. here has simply to insult and embarrass. Which do you think is a more effective tool for conflict and problem resolution?

While, having met Jeff at a Summit school and having read his many well thought out posts here over the years, I respect his opinions even though I may not agree with them all, I can't say the same of you or yours. While you are constantly alerting us to how much longer you've been racing than the rest of us, I would have hoped that you'd have spent some of that time learning tact. You'll find that people respect not only your opinions, but YOU when you show some. As I know was explained to you, it is much more difficult to portray emotion when posting online. And to take arrow out of your quiver, perhaps you don't mean to come across as a nasty, arrogant, pompous, crackpot prick to so many people here so often....

But you do.

I can guarantee you that however many "brownie points" you think you've earned or how much respect you think you are owed due to your age, sheer number of years in the paddock, or how low your membership number is, none of that matters one iota if you can't be civil and treat people with respect. So any time you try to get a point across, whether it be here or in the paddock, whether it be to your driver's rep, or your fellow competitors, or your R.E., remember that YOU really hurt your chances of getting a fair shake by your choice of words and your venom.

TTFWIW

Now where were we? Oh yes...

In both posts above I see a desire to try and save SARRC/MARRS. Let me think about this and see if there is some way I can cobble together something that works from all of the above.
[/b]

Sounds good, Jeff. As discussed, finding a resolution, whether it be for '08 (or most likely '09 due to the Summit National scheduling) requires compromise on both sides. I think Ron may be moving us in the right direction with the schedule modification that may give some us some more flexibility to construct more compatible, less crowded groupings.

[grjones1]

Well gee, Greg, somehow I don't believe saying someone "sounds like a... bureaucrat" equates to calling someone "a nasty, arrogant, pompous, crackpot prick " or that the use of cartoons is not necessarily suggestive of the behavior of "small children" but again you demonstrate that what may be disallowed for others is not necessarily prohibited for your own behavior. (Why must we always have to put up with a spoiled, privileged class?)

My "arrows come out of the quiver" when someone attacks me, not before. Every "attack" I am guilty of has been in answer to insults aimed at me. Read all of the threads you are so fond of dredging up from 4 years ago and you will see that is indeed the case. If showing "tact" is what you have been doing, you are the one needing a revisit to charm school.

You say I like reminding you of how long I 've been racing - believe it or not at my age, one does not enjoy reminding anyone how long he's been doing anything (again you lack insight). I recorded that only because it was suggested that I somehow had not volunteered enough as part of someone's ad hominem retort (again read the thread). And you seemed so proud of your having come up with a workable 2-day schedule you had to quote and number where you had said it first. I was compelled to point out that it was not a new idea- someone had not only already come up with it, but it had been worked successfully 20 years ago (something you might not know about).

I'll close out of this with these thoughts: If my posts have in any way helped restore the SARRC/MARRS event, I don't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks of my "tact." If your kind of leadership is however indicative of what we can expect from our new representatives, SARRC/MARRS event or not maybe its time for me to find somewhere else to spend my expendable income. I'll leave it to you self-righteous, self-aggrandizing hypocrites to mess it up. Lord knows there are enough nasty, arrogant, pompous, crackpot pricks without me to make sure a good thing goes down the tubes.

I'll be outside if you have anything else to say, I've had a few drinks so it'll be a fair fight. (bad paraphrase from The Caine Mutiny, but I'm sure even you get the drift.)

My sincere apologies to the rest of you. I promise I won't submit you to this kind of crap again, regardless of the slander that may appear. Good Racing to you and Merry Christmas!

[Cobrar05]

another key factor is quality racing. just lumping classes together to make the numbers right can't be the only consideration. classes like ITS/R and AS don't play well together.
[/b]

AS and GT1 together is better?

[erlrich]

AS and GT1 together is better? Just because that's where they run in many other regions, including every year in recent history at the SARRC/MARRS race, doesn't mean we shouldn't now put them in a class where they're faster down the straights and then hold up everyone in the corners. [/b]

There, finished that for you.

[JeffYoung]

Earl, to expand on that as I am trying to think what classes go best in a group in order to come up with groups that work for an extremely crowded event like SARRC/MARRS, let's hear what people think about HOW we should set up run groups.

The unspoken kickers here are, of course, the formula guys want nothing to do with running against even semi-closed wheel like Sports Racers and SRF. The second is, no one wants to be the slowest class in a group.

My initial thoughts:

1. I've always thought the SARRC grouping of S/A/7/Spec 7/R works great. Probably a good sized group for SARRC/MARRS as well, right? 6070 cars?

2. SM and SSM.

3. Fast Production cars (EP), DP, BP, AS, ITO, ITE?

4. Ground Pounders, GT1, 2, T1, T2

5. B/C/H Prod/G Prod

6. Sports racers inlcuding SRF

7. Open wheel?

A variation of what I proposed above, but let's see if we can focus on which groups run best together.

3.

[Cobrar05]

There, finished that for you.
[/b]

Faster on the straights and not as fast in the corners. Thats just racing.

[85itccivic]

As happens all too often threads that start out meaning well degrade into name calling and pissing matches . I applaud Mr Young and Mr Jones for making good faith efforts to save an event they obviously care about . I have not run the S/M challenge at VIR because it has never fit my life schedule but most of my team cars have been there . They like the event . Yes, it has some issues and I hope that our respective regions take an honest look at what has been talked about to keep the event alive. As for everyone else adding there two cents please put your dicks away and dry off your shoes.

Roger Troxell
Casa de Amigos Racing
05,06,07 Marrs ITC champions

[mlytle]

Faster on the straights and not as fast in the corners. Thats just racing.
[/b]

unless you are in a class that is fast in the corners and less fast on the straights, then the "not as fast in the corner" crowd gets really, really annoying.

it isn't just racing, the goal is to find a way to group cars that evens out the numbers while maintaining quality racing, not just get track time. cars that "race" the same style should be grouped together. AS cars don't work well with IT cars. this is particularly true with ITS and ITR, who run similar lap times as the AS crowd, but get the time in very different places. that is not dissing either class in any way, it is just the nature of the cars.

[mlytle]

Earl, to expand on that as I am trying to think what classes go best in a group in order to come up with groups that work for an extremely crowded event like SARRC/MARRS, let's hear what people think about HOW we should set up run groups.

The unspoken kickers here are, of course, the formula guys want nothing to do with running against even semi-closed wheel like Sports Racers and SRF. The second is, no one wants to be the slowest class in a group.

My initial thoughts:

1. I've always thought the SARRC grouping of S/A/7/Spec 7/R works great. Probably a good sized group for SARRC/MARRS as well, right? 6070 cars?

2. SM and SSM.

3. Fast Production cars (EP), DP, BP, AS, ITO, ITE?

4. Ground Pounders, GT1, 2, T1, T2

5. B/C/H Prod/G Prod

6. Sports racers inlcuding SRF

7. Open wheel?

A variation of what I proposed above, but let's see if we can focus on which groups run best together.

3.
[/b]

would group 5 be big enough? would spec7 maybe fit in that group?

would love to see all the open wheel together. there just are not enough of them to justify separate groups. there will be huge push back on it from the open wheel drivers though due to a perceived issue with the closing rates between FC's and FV's.

i suspect we may hear from the miata crowd about splitting sm and ssm into two groups. anyone want to run with them?

[JeffYoung]

So do AS cars work best with the Ground Pounders? They run that way at CMP and Roebling. Plus, there just aren't that many of them.

Do we move them there, out of the fast production car group? Although that group is now shrinking....fewer and fewer EP cars out there, haven't seen many BP/DP cars, and O/E cars are few and far between as well.

AS cars can do ok in the corners, just depends on how they are driven. At a track like VIR, or from what little I have seen of Summit, I agree they probably don't work though, while at Roebling, which is more flowing and more conducive to their live axles, they might.

The goal of all of this is to reduce the size of what was once A/B/C/7/Spec 7/Slow Prod cars. That was the group that I think was the most problematic. If we can get six groups, with a smaller group of the above, then we probably have a workable 3 day optional schedule, with a qual session on Saturday morning. Remember, this event is in May and we can run a later race schedule since we are just past daylight's savings time.

Gregg, to try and answer two of your questions, I admit that I doubt we probably actually lose very few SARRC drivers if we go to 3 days. You certainly wouldn't lose me. But, bear with me here -- I think as a practical matter NCR/SARRC just won't go to a 3 day "mandatory" schedule (meaning you have to qualify on Friday) because they are the host region and have decided they don't want that. I know that is not what you guys want to hear, but I have the feeling -- just a feeling -- that it just "is."

On the lower fee/one race idea, I can't remember the VIR per day rental but it is astronomical. Our other "single" race weekends in March and October have to run a Carolina Cup or one or two ECRs to make them work financially. Since those series wouldn't, understandably, appeal to MARRS drivers, I think we are locked in (again I don't have the numbers to prove it, just the above observation) to a double in order to charge a fee that makes the weekend viable.

So, back to the grouping and schedule:

1. S/A/SRX7/IT7, GTL/SPU

2. SM and SSM.

3. Fast Production cars (EP), DP, BP, AS, ITO, ITE, GT1/GT2, T1, T2, SPO

4. B/C/H Prod/G Prod

5. Sports racers inlcuding SRF

6. Open wheel?

The "unhappy guys" I see here are the ground pounders and the SRF guys and open wheelers. Other than the SRF guys, honestly, these are smaller run groups. So, and I mean this from a totally practical standpoint, we stand to piss off fewer people with this setup than any other I can devise.

Note that the "problem" group -- B/C/H Prod and G Prod is now made up of momentum cars that make time the same way, and the group size is reduced.

We then run the schedule as follows:

Friday morning: 20/30 minute practice sessions for all groups

Friday afternoon: 30 minute qualifying for Saturday race. OPTIONAL.

Saturday morning: 20 minute qualifying for each of the 6 groups. Qual time is used for both Saturday and Sunday races. If you plot this out, you get the following:

8:15 Green track

8:15 - 8:35 -- Grp 1 Q
8:45 - 9:05 -- Grp 2
9:15 - 9:35 -- Grp 3
9:45 - 10:05 -- Grp 4
10:15 - 10:35 - Grp 5
10:45 - 11:05 - Grp 6
11:05 - 11:20 worker break
11:25 - 12:00 Grp 1 race.

Lunch

1:15-1:45 Grp 2
2:00-2:30 Grp 3
2:45- 3:15 Grp 4
3:30 - 4 Grp 5
4:15 - 4:45 - Grp 6

Sunday -- races only, MARRS guys get a head start on towing home.

What do you guys think? Let's tweak it and then submit it with as many SARRC driver and MARRS driver names as we can get on it to our respective REs.

[seckerich]

Just tossing this out. How about making all sessions count for qualifing like the SIC. Many more chances to get a good time than a one shot deal.

[Ron Earp]

Steve's idea seems like a good one.

And, put the track green 30 mins earlier. Call to grid for group one at 735 or so, run them at 745am.

It won't kill anyone and the extra time will be much appreciated throughout the day with tows, offs, and other mishaps.

[JeffYoung]

Steve, good idea.

They won't start the race earlier, for a reason.

That would require the workers to be there at 6:30. Volunteers, folks who don't have to be there. Whatever we do, we can't make it harder on them.

[Cobrar05]

I am sure that when you are quick in the corners and you are stuck behind someone faster on the straight, its annoying. Being on the race track with cars running 50mph faster on the straights is scary. They close so fast that you can miss them in your mirror even when you are looking in the mirror more than out the windshield.

I should show you the video of Tony Ave going by me at the entrance of the climbing esses at VIR. I saw him coming and lifted to give him the corner and he was gone. Later he passed me turning into the roller coaster. I didn't see him then, though. I was looking but missed him in the mirrors because of the up and down tilting of the race track through that back section. I saw a flash of yellow to my right at turn in. That was all the kept me from hitting him.

Annoying....Scary.....both are no fun. I would take annoying. But that's just me.

[mlytle]

I am sure that when you are quick in the corners and you are stuck behind someone faster on the straight, its annoying. Being on the race track with cars running 50mph faster on the straights is scary. They close so fast that you can miss them in your mirror even when you are looking in the mirror more than out the windshield.

I should show you the video of Tony Ave going by me at the entrance of the climbing esses at VIR. I saw him coming and lifted to give him the corner and he was gone. Later he passed me turning into the roller coaster. I didn't see him then, though. I was looking but missed him in the mirrors because of the up and down tilting of the race track through that back section. I saw a flash of yellow to my right at turn in. That was all the kept me from hitting him.

Annoying....Scary.....both are no fun. I would take annoying. But that's just me.
[/b]

BTDT..also have the video... . ITS ran with the big bore and AS crowd two years ago in MARRS. i suspect the closing rate between an ITS car and a GT1 is a bit more. at least when running with a really fast class, they are gone in a flash and do not interfere with your race. you just have to pay attention to the little specs in the mirrors. with the long straights of vir, they have plenty of open space to go by. not a big deal really.

Jeff - i suspect you meant to put ITR in with S/A? and if small prod is now a small momentum group...add srx7?

[JeffYoung]

Yes. Although, Earl in the spreadsheet I reference below moved B to Group 1 and SR7 and IT7 to Group 4. While the speeds might be a bit off, I think the numbers work. Other than SM/SSM, car groups are all in the 50-60 range.

I intend to submit a written proposal and spreadsheet with the above schedule and groupings to our RE later this week, signed by as many SARRC and MARRS drivers as I can get. Let me know if you want to see it and sign it. Gregg or Earl, can you guys take the lead on the MARRS side?

Thanks.

Jeff

[erlrich]

While the speeds might be a bit off, I think the numbers work. Other than SM/SSM, car groups are all in the 50-60 range.[/b]

Maybe surprisingly, IT7, SRX7, and ITB were all within a second of each other this year, so I don't see speeds being a big problem. Now open wheel...maybe another story. Also it should be noted that the group sizes mentioned above are based on '07 numbers.

I intend to submit a written proposal and spreadsheet with the above schedule and groupings to our RE later this week, signed by as many SARRC and MARRS drivers as I can get. Let me know if you want to see it and sign it. Gregg or Earl, can you guys take the lead on the MARRS side? [/b]

I would think Gregg, Marshall, and Charlie could probably take it to the comp comittee, and then let the reps get it out to the drivers?

[Gregg]

Sure, I'm happy to present but I would strongly suggest that some of those drivers lending support to your proposal come from some non-IT folk, especially those groups of "unhappy guys." I'm not so worried about the SRF / SR group as I am the all-inclusive formula car group. To expand on what Marshall alluded to a few posts ago, the driving force behind the MARRS series adding another run group last year (and all the required machinations to make it work) was that the smaller formula cars (ie. FV and F500) did not feel that driving w/ the bigger cars made for safe racing--a viewpoint that the WDCR stewards shared--with GCR 3.5.2.C used to make the point. Although a relatively small contingent (approx. 15 cars in '07), it could cause a disproportionate share of pain. I see little issue with it but would hate to see what happens when an FA comes barreling down up the Esses only to encounter a four- or five-car train of FV's going into South Bend. It wouldn't be pretty.

Just something to think about it.

[JeffYoung]

Understood. We considered it and our thinking was this:

1. Those are the smallest run groups, so the grouping creates the "least" amount of pain.

2. Also, if the open wheel guys "boycott" as a result, lesser chance of affecting overall numbers.

More than happy to run this by open wheelers, just don't know any. Thoughts? Any ideas?