VIR SARRC/MARRS Proposal

[spnkzss]

I guess since I never did the 3 day double, I don't have any comparison. Why did people not like the 3 day event with all qual on Friday? Just because it was Friday?

[JamesB]

I dont think it was MARRS that didnt like the format. SARRC prefers a 2 day double and its pretty fast paced, but I just don't see how it works with very large subscription levels if it means 80 car run groups. I was going to attend this year, but something came up with work so I ended up skipping it. But the reports I got back was very crowded track for qual, shorter races with larger fields and it sounded like many where fustrated by that. I didnt mind the 3 day at all, I love the facility and 3 days time down there is nothing.

[dj10]

I would thing a few DC region people would still make it down to a great track and from all indications to race with some good people.
[/b]

"i may take you up on that veiled challenge dan! '"



" to race with some good people." Ok Marshall, I guess I'll include you too.
Man am I glad I'm out of the Marines, or I'd be guarding the latrine until I was up for PFC again.

[mlytle]

I dont think it was MARRS that didnt like the format. SARRC prefers a 2 day double and its pretty fast paced, but I just don't see how it works with very large subscription levels if it means 80 car run groups. I was going to attend this year, but something came up with work so I ended up skipping it. But the reports I got back was very crowded track for qual, shorter races with larger fields and it sounded like many where fustrated by that. I didnt mind the 3 day at all, I love the facility and 3 days time down there is nothing.
[/b]

ding ding ding..we have a winner!

for smaller fields the two day format seems to work for sarrc, and it worked at nelsons for marrs. but did not work for the huge amount of cars for a sarrc/marrs event.

believe it or not, a bunch of marrs folks complained about the 3 day format two years ago. too much time away from home//office. marrs actually requested/went along with the sarrc change to two days. well, we got what we asked for this year with an undesirable result.

lets go back to the old 3 day format for 09!

[JeffYoung]

and to get back to the start of this thread -- with Friday optional.

Does that work for the MARRS guys?

[grjones1]

Good for me. Thank you.

[spnkzss]

and to get back to the start of this thread -- with Friday optional.

Does that work for the MARRS guys?
[/b]

I take it that in years past Friday had 2 qual and Sat/Sun were races. I believe the concensus is we need to go back to that? If so, how can you make Friday optional? The reason people want to go back to that format is so we can have more run groups on race day so we have less cars on track.

All the above statements are there as questions and comments. I'm just trying to make sure I have it straight.

[jjjanos]

and to get back to the start of this thread -- with Friday optional.

Does that work for the MARRS guys?
[/b]

Define optional.
Is the schedule you are talking about something like this:

Friday: Two 30-minute qualifying sessions by group to determine starting position for Saturday Race.
Sat: 15-minute qualifying session be group to determine starting position for Saturday Race.
Sat: 10-lap races by group, best time/finishing position determines starting position for Sunday Race
Sun: 2 hardship sessions (?)
Sun: 12-lap races by group

[JeffYoung]

The above would work for me, although I would have practice sessions Friday morning, qual Friday afternoon for Saturday's race, Saturday qual, Saturday race (with the best of teh friday/Saturday time use for the race), and Sunday race (with either Saturday qual times or Saturday race times used to set the grid).

The key for us NCR guys is to make the schedule such so that we do not HAVE to be there Friday. Spanky, appreciate your question on that and wanted to make it clear. That is the NCR concern that has to be addressed, just as there are MARRS concerns that have to be addressed as well.

[mlytle]

I take it that in years past Friday had 2 qual and Sat/Sun were races. I believe the concensus is we need to go back to that? If so, how can you make Friday optional? The reason people want to go back to that format is so we can have more run groups on race day so we have less cars on track.

All the above statements are there as questions and comments. I'm just trying to make sure I have it straight.
[/b]

correct, you can't make friday optional with the old sked. and correct, ditching the sat/sun qual sessions allowed more race groups and far less overcrowding....a critical factor when you have two major series sharing a weekend.

if i may ask the ncr folks...why is driving on friday so taboo?

[JeffYoung]

Last time -- NCR locals don't want to have to be there on a Friday. The three day weekend is too much time away from work for us to go to a local track. That's not just my sentiment, it is the sentiment of the group and one of the two competing concerns that I am trying to balance here -- you guys want a three day weekend and the attendant more track time; NCR wants a two day weekend.

So, again, for this to work, there must be a COMPROMISE. That is where both sides give a little. Comp-ro-mise. SARRC guys pay a bit more money for track time they may not use. MARRS guys have a bit more of a compressed schedule.

Friday has to be optional.

[Bill Miller]

After running the MARRS Labor Day dbl for a number of years, I always had the impression that trying to run a 'real' dbl in two days was a waste of time. It was one of the reasons I quit going to the Pocono dbl. Do it in three days, and do it right. Why would you want smaller fields???

[JeffYoung]

Bill, we run well attended doubles in teh SEDiv. quite a bit. Daytona, Roebling, etc. They can work, and do for us.

But, I understand the MARRS preference for a three day event at a track those guys don't normally run at. That's fine, and makes sense to me. All I am saying is that IT WON'T HAPPEN (not yelling at you) if the compromise position that is reached does not address NCR's concerns. NCR wants a two day double, and can run one smoothly. You can debate whether it is a good idea or not, but they are good at getting two races in on a weekend. VIR runs smoothly and one time.

So, back to the original proposal to start this thread -- if we have an optional Friday morning practice, and Friday afternoon qual, all for the same price as those just running two days, do we have something that while not perfect, actually works for everyone?

I think we do.

[spnkzss]

Bill, we run well attended doubles in teh SEDiv. quite a bit. Daytona, Roebling, etc. They can work, and do for us.

But, I understand the MARRS preference for a three day event at a track those guys don't normally run at. That's fine, and makes sense to me. All I am saying is that IT WON'T HAPPEN (not yelling at you) if the compromise position that is reached does not address NCR's concerns. NCR wants a two day double, and can run one smoothly. You can debate whether it is a good idea or not, but they are good at getting two races in on a weekend. VIR runs smoothly and one time.

So, back to the original proposal to start this thread -- if we have an optional Friday morning practice, and Friday afternoon qual, all for the same price as those just running two days, do we have something that while not perfect, actually works for everyone?

I think we do.
[/b]

Unfortunatly I don't think so. On one side we have people that don't want a 3 day event. ON the other side we have people that want smaller run groups, which means the only solution is a 3 day event. The only real answer is a 3 day event or a single race weekend and not a double, which means higher entry costs.

Making Friday optional doesn't help with the 90 car fields.

By no means am I saying that this is impossible, but I'm beginning to see where the trouble truly was. How can you make both regions somewhat happy?

Now the questions I have, because I don't know, is of those 2 say double that you have:
1.) How long is the track that you are running on? (Makes a big difference in run time/down time on a 3.5 mile course versus 2 mile course)
2.) How many cars do you have?

I have either run or spectated the last 16 straight Labor Day Doubles at Summit Point. I could not imagine making that a 2 day event. Too many cars. We normall get between 350-400 cars.

Recap:

NO 3 day weekend
AND Smaller run groups

And that is the question

[JeffYoung]

Roebling sees 300 cars for its double, but is 2 miles. VIR runs a double, on a 3.27 track, and it works, you guys (understandably) don't like the run groups. Daytona is as long right?

Not sure why the Friday optional "doesn't work?"

The ONE run group that I think was a problem was ITA/B/C/7. In 04, didn't we run A/S/7 (and can put R in there), SRFs with the prod cars, and put the Bs/Cs etc. with SM? Maybe that won't work with the growth in SM.

All I am saying is the MARRS guys can talk about a mandatory 3 day weekend all they want, but if that is the requirement to have you guys here, I don't believe (although I can't speak for them personally) that SARRC/MARRS won't happen.

A shame, it was a great event.

[Gregg]

Not sure why the Friday optional "doesn't work?"
[/b]

So then we essentially go back to what we had prior to '07...

Friday was used to qualify for Saturday and Sunday. Seperate sessions and no practice. You had to be there or start at the back if allowed. There was a time when there was a hard luck qualifier on Sat morning and they counted that time for both races. That was a crock. We would show up Friday and run in the heat of the day and someone would show up late and run Sat morning in the cool weather and kick your butt. If you want to make it work just have the one qualifing session and let it count for Sat and Sun.
[/b]

Here's how you handle an "optional" day -- if you choose not to run it you just start from the back. :-)

One of our (meaning the DC Region's) suggestions to NCR after the '07 event was to make this a single race event if it was to be held over two days. I guess the loss of 100+ MARRS competitors and their entry fees was less than the region felt they'd lose if they had to reduce the the greater pool's fees to something commensurate with a "single" event. While not knowing what VIR charges for track time I still don't see the logic there.

If you want a two day event, my recommendation is simply to have a 15min qualifying session on Sat. AM for each group. We then have a reasonable length race (say 7-8 laps or perhaps timed at 20min) in the afternoon. That race sets the grid for the Sunday feature of 12 laps (which would be longer than this year's 10 laps). Let the track continue to handle the optional (er...practice) day

This was the format during my first event up at the Glen and worked quite well. This way you get your two races, you get your less crowded groupings, and you get your two day event. What the region doesn't get is quite as much money.

[jjjanos]

Cannot speak for other drivers, but for me, the reason I probably wouldn't go back for a 2-day MARRS/SARRC was the size of the run group I was in. We had 89 cars in our run group (ITA->C, RX7s, SS) and it seriously screwed up my race. Both races I had higher HP bricks in other classes qualify behind me, but because of their HP got passed me by the uphill esses, where they proceeded to hold me up, roar away down the back straight and then, again, hold me up to the front straight. Rinse repeat for a couple of laps.

Now add being a slower class in the back of an 89 car field. We had serious according effect because, I think, they gave a late green. We had cars take to the grass to avoid collisions.

Same problem with the Miata group - 90 cars.

Why the authorities did not decide to use a bona-fide split start for the two huge groups is beyond me.

It won't matter whether this is a 2-day or a 3-day event. I won't race a MARRS/SARRC event at VIR if I'm faced with a run group that large without a guaranteed split-start written into the supps. No offensive, but I don't trust any steward to honor a "gentlemans' agreement" on splitting the start for large run groups.

Roebling might accomodate 300 cars for a two-day double, but the question is... is that 6 groups of 50 or 8 groups of 38?

[Cobrar05]

Jeff,

I just think they, MARRS, want what they want. Either the event is run to their needs/wants or they won't run it. Maybe they would like to try Road Atlanta or Watkins Glen? I doubt they would like that either as the attendance there is big as well.

edit: I've been wanting to rewrite this all day....The MARRS guys want either a 3 day event or make it a single. MARRS is a regional series, not s divisional one and maybe they lose track of the idea that many SARRC participants haul a long way to get to VIR and would not do so were it a single. If it were a single, I wonder how many MARRS guys would not think it worth the haul?

Make it a three day and you lose a lot of people that are just not available to race on Friday. Are there any such three day events on the SARRC calender?

The VIR May double is a NC region/SARRC event that has been shared. I think if MARRS wants to participate they should do it as the host plans it. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't know what MARRS would be open to turning their event upside down for the SARRC guys.

[seckerich]

Keep in mind the number of days you have to find workers for. Thursday-Sunday and all the related costs. SARRC has historically run a lot of doubles. Most are traveling quite a distance for races and get more for their dollar at a double. If it is a single you will not get any more track time because there will be other races thrown in. Some say raise the entry fee and give more track time. Sounds good but the market does not seem to support the idea. In the end it is a business decision for the region and it has to make sense. Find a way to make it work without reducing the dollars and they will work with you.

Very few people run just one of the races unless they break so:

Have 8 groups and start Friday with 30 minute practice sessions by group.
Begin Qualifing with 30 minute sessions
Finish qualifing Saturday morning.
Run true 30 minute races.
Sunday 20 minute Qualifing sessions.
30 minute races.
(Might work to qualify some groups Saturday afternoon for Sunday)Have to look at time line.

Reduce the times you change groups and get 110 minutes of track time.

[dj10]

Keep in mind the number of days you have to find workers for. Thursday-Sunday and all the related costs[/b]

Steve, you hit on a key point!