Fire Suits

[Ron Earp]

What's the shelf life on a suit anyway? I would suspect after time (mine did, although I didn't take that good care of it) you would want to replace the thing anyway due to wear, failing seems, etc.
[/b]

A suit should easily last seven years with good care, no doubt. Good care means not working on the car in it, cleaning it every weekend, etc. Yours lasted four plus years with brutal treatment - so seven plus years should be no problem with care.

Regardless it basically seems unfair that guys were perfectly legal throughout 2007 and will now be deemed illegal. And illegal based not on logical data, but illegal based on SCCA/Vendor relationships that don't have the safety of the racers as top priority, or doesn't appear to if the SFI specs are more lax than the FIA specs.

Ron

[Andy Bettencourt]

As Jake eluded to earlier, we have an ITAC call tonight and I will make sure we get any info we can from the CRB and publish it here.

[Ron Earp]

Thanks Andy, much appreciated by all I'm sure.

Ron

[Knestis]

My "3.5-layer" Design 500 suit is 20 years old and is in essentially perfect condition.

I took a long sabbatical in there of course but Nomex and related aramid fibers are pretty tough and do NOT lose any of their fire/heat resistant qualities unless severely degraded by UV light. Structural integrity is another issue of course - you could mechanically wear through or blow a seam, even with normal use, if you race a LOT. Wash your suit in warm water and don't hang it in the sun.

Maybe we need to revisit the RICO idea. This SFI thing pisses me off even more, every time it raises its ugly head.

K

[JeffYoung]

If the old ones still work, and meet acceptable standards, then this is silly. Let me know what I can do to help get it changed.

[gsbaker]

If the old ones still work, and meet acceptable standards, then this is silly. Let me know what I can do to help get it changed.
[/b]

Here's a thought: Let's do a little science. Let's compare the performance of old suits to new suits. Seriously, don't throw the old ones out. I have no idea what the test protocols are, but it should not be that difficult to conduct the same test on two suits that vary only by age.

If this page weren't empty, SCCA may have another option: http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/Suits.html

We can either complain about it or do something about it.

[Greg Amy]

Let's compare the performance of old suits to new suits.[/b]

Material testing for fire resistance is easy; I had to do it some years ago for some automotive fabrics and vinyls I used in the interior of my airplane. Cost is low, too. Without going into FAA definitions here (which are as clumsy as SCCA's), I wrote a full article on the experience:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182839-1.html

[spdmonkey]

It seems to me there is some confusion about the dates on the FIA certification. Mine is the 1986 date and I purchased this suit from a Sparco dealer in 1998. A full 12 years after the standard was set. Now the newer suits marked 2000 have a date 18 years different but many of these suits are nowhere near that age. My suit is going on 10 years old and while a bit snugger than when I bought it you can not tell one bit that it is that age. If it did not have a couple patches you could not tell its used. Taking very good care of it and a seriously reduced number of outings in the last several years while always cleaning it after races are what works for me. Its nuts that ths suit is "bad" while a single layer suit can be marked "good" just because of a label. I've seen more oil soaked nasty single layer suits that you can see thru get raced and usually without the underwear. I just can't fathom this.

And remember next year everybody will need to buy a SFI rated fire system per the new rules as well. I guess I can throw out my plumbed halon system. Maybe SCCA just wants us to throw out our cars too......

db

[JeffYoung]

I'll donate my oldish (2002) OMP with FIA 2000 cert for testing. Let me know.

[Greg Amy]

I'll donate my oldish (2002) OMP with FIA 2000 cert for testing. Let me know.[/b]

...and I've got my very first driver's suit, one that was loaned to me over 20 years ago, made of FPT Linea Sport. I'd hate to cut it up; it's still in almost-new shape, but it's of no value in the back of the closet, and it would be interesting to see how something so old stacks up against the current crop of SFI-certified materials... - GA

[gsbaker]

A bit out of my realm here, Greg, but isn't there some generalized bottom line measure called TPP? It seems like the reasonable thing to do is mandate suits that meet a particular TPP level of protection, and just have the manufacturer certify that level of performance, rather than branch off into FIA/SFI labeling.

Not and old-vs-new issue I know, but this whole thing sounds far more complicated than it need be.

[Greg Amy]

Gregg, I know absolutely nothing about firesuit certification, so I bow to your dealing-with-industry-certification greatness...

[gsbaker]

Gregg, I know absolutely nothing about firesuit certification, so I bow to your dealing-with-industry-certification greatness...
[/b]

Ha! We're all going down in flames now.


Hmm. Not a bad start: Clickity-click

[vr6guy]

It's pretty amazing that every vender that sells OMP, finds it absolutely hysterical the choice scca has made. I have a few of them trying to get me the documentation for the 1986 spec line as far as burn transfer rates and such. scca, where busines comes before safety

"The rules for 2008 require a suit carrying an SFI 3.2A/1 or FIA 8856-2000 certification. The SCCA is not in a position to conduct their own suit testing so I am unable to comment on the performance of specific suits and/or materials. I have forwarded your input to the Club Racing Board."



Jeremy



this is what I received from Jeremy Thoennes and John Bauer... at least he replied, but abviously their reasoning is not for safety but sadly for business.....

[ScotMac]

Let's not go overboard and do the proverbial "throwing of the baby out w/ the bath water". The main problem here, as i see it, is that the new rules have very specifically eliminated the 1986 FIA cert. So, all that is really needed is a determination of whether the 1986 cert is still valid, and if so reinstate it.

Does anyone know the reasoning of why it was eliminated?

Edit: I just did a quick search, and there appears to be very little information on the web about the "FIA 8856-1986" standard. Also, it appears all the good stuff on the FIA Institutes web site are under the "private area". Anyone have access?

[Quickshoe]

As Kirk kind of pointed out...aramid fibers don't lose their effectiveness over time like the chemical treated fabrics (Proban for example). When new, both a proban suit and nomex suit might carry the same sfi patch, but their ability to perform over time versus each other are not linear.

Kirks' 20-ish year old suit (given it's construction materials) will perform better than a brand new off the shelf SFI 3.2A/5 suit with a TPP rating of 19. It may not be as light or comfortable but it will protect.

I'd be MUCH happier with a rule that required SFI3.2A/5 or better, FIA 1986 or 2000 rating as a MINIMUM with fire retardant underwear as mandatory. No chemically treated fabrics allowed unless date of manufacture can be proven to be less than 5 years old. Protect the ignorant from themselves and let the rest of us make good choices. Kind of like the ISAAC situation

[pballance]

And remember next year everybody will need to buy a SFI rated fire system per the new rules as well. I guess I can throw out my plumbed halon system. Maybe SCCA just wants us to throw out our cars too......

db
[/b]

Did I miss something, I don't recall reading that. I hope that is tongue in cheek and I didn't miss that in Fastrack.

[Racerlinn]

And actually if you want to read the exact way the end of the rule is written:

"Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standards of 8856-1986 or 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch."

Unless I missed it already, this would mean I CANNOT wear underwear because my suit is 3-2A/5 (tongue firmly in cheek).

Did I miss something, I don't recall reading that. I hope that is tongue in cheek and I didn't miss that in Fastrack.
[/b]

I *think* Item 2 of the Fastrack is basically grandfathering in all existing systems, including hand held bottles. It states that cars registered after 1/1/09 shall comply.
Did I miss where hand-helds are no longer legal?

[Knestis]

Let's not go overboard and do the proverbial "throwing of the baby out w/ the bath water". The main problem here, as i see it, is that the new rules have very specifically eliminated the 1986 FIA cert. ...[/b]

Not so fast there, Speed. More drivers are likely to be impacted by this because they are using older but still completely serviceable Nomex, PBI, or other suits that don't have any SFI or FIA certification, than are likely to get trapped with only 1986 FIA-spec suits.

K

[Matt Rowe]

Not so fast there, Speed. More drivers are likely to be impacted by this because they are using older but still completely serviceable Nomex, PBI, or other suits that don't have any SFI or FIA certification, than are likely to get trapped with only 1986 FIA-spec suits.[/b]

Right, but if you don't put a spec on the suits what requires a suit to be fireproof? And by that I mean new suits as well. Under the current rule you could go out and make your own suit and as long as you use the right material you can use it. even though it may fall apart in a fire.

The entire point of having an SFI or FIA cert on the suit is to demonstrate the suit has been tested. I dislike the SFI "process" as much as the next guy but in this case requiring some testing seems like a good thing to me.