ITR Contenders

[JeffYoung]

Mark, good to hear from you. Heard the rest of your season after Nashville went well -- congratulations.

I would say that the three biggest areas of debate amongst the ITR committee folks were:

1. V8 ponys, and to a lesser extent the 928 (a fetish car of mine, probably good that it did not get classed).

2. Whether to put the high revving 4 cylinders (Acura RS-X or some sort and definitely the Toyota Celica GT-S) with lower hp in S at a high weight or in R at a ridiculously low weight.

3. What to do with the S52 powered BMW cars -- should they be included in ITR or no?

I was on the fence on 3. I owned a 2000 M Coupe, best car and best motor I've ever owned. Stock made more hp than advertised -- I dynoed it at 216 at the wheels which is about 250 crank hp or 10 more than advertised. Others with M Coupes were even higher.

There was a significant fear that the power potential in IT trim for those cars could, based on the 325 experience, reach as much as 260-270 hp. That's just too much for ITR and as Andy says we were looking at a weight of 3500 lbs or so based on power potential for all the S52 engined cars.

I posted on the Bimmerforums board about this I beleive, and I think most thought that an unrestricted 325is at 2600/2700 lbs could not compete with an M3 at a reasonable weight.

It is a shame, there are a lot of M3 track and race cars out there that would be great for ITR fields. I just think the car is a bit out of the performance range for ITR. If someone has numbers to convince me otherwise, I am all ears. I think they would make a great addition to ITR so long as they don't have a real potential to be a class killer.

[benspeed]

Hey Bosco - thanks for the info. I'm doing my LS1 homework to see what kind of power these can make at what cost.

Cheers

[Ron Earp]

As Jeff says the ITR discussion around certain cars was quite lively.

I too had a S52 motored M3 Coupe and I felt the car was going to be too much for ITR. Indeed, the process weight for it was extremely high with the 3.2L 4 valve inline six that we know makes good hp stock. And, has a table top flat torque curve to boot. The process weight was higher than the curb weight for the car in street trim so it didn’t seem to be a good fit in ITR. The discussion around these cars didn’t draw out for weeks, but there was some debate.

On the V8 pony cars, basically the 1994/1995 5L Mustang, there was a significant amount of debate. Had the car been classed the weight would have been fairly high, and in that respect the car might not be “racable”. There is no denying they would have a torque advantage in ITR, however the data shows these cars would not have been the horsepower leaders in the ITR group as long as the IT rules were followed. Nonetheless, they are not in ITR and it is probably a good thing they are not for the first iteration in order to allow things to settle out and see how the class is going.

I bought Jake’s 944 S2 to evaluate for ITR. I think it is a car for the short list as the weight is reasonable, it has good brakes, a strong motor, and a long heritage of successful racing in various 944 trims. I figure that is worth a lot, to be able to draw upon a large body of racing knowledge (Jensen Healey fear and memories vivid). The 944 S2 is essentially the same motor as the 968, sans Variocam and dual intake tracts, but those really don’t come into play at race RPMs. Rare cars, but share lots o’ parts with standard 944s.

That 300z looks good, but the weight scares me a bit and the motor complexity. Development is costly.

E30 M3s seem pretty interesting, have a long racing history and body of knowledge, and are light. Not too expensive either.

The Camaro is a possibility, maybe a bit more so than the Mustang.

BMW 325/328/330s are all going to be very strong, stable, and proven. They look to be good choices.

I like ITR. It appears that many people seem to think there are a lot of contenders for ITR and that is a good thing. But, for now, I’ll stick to S – I have a running car and it is inexpensive to run (relatively), a very good thing.

Ron

[benspeed]

Hey Ron,

Is the plan to drive the car while you have fun setting it up? That's my idea for now - pick a fun car with front runner potential and have some fun slowly building it out while racing a finished car.

S2 is a good play also.

I still think the 300ZX has a shot - especially at the fast tracks.

[Ron Earp]

That is the plan. We sort of need a third car at my house for when one goes down anyhow. The Porsche runs fine, I like driving it, and it is a cool car.

The tentative plan is to add racey bits to it over a period of a year or so and take it on track outings. I firmly feel that driving a car on the street that you plan to make into a race car is a big advantage. I have not had the pleasure to do so, but lots of guys I respect as racers, and are successful racers, did just that.

Ron

[erlrich]

Damn all of you I say!!! Especially Earp & Young, who started this whole ITR mess!

I'm sitting here looking through car ads for a replacement for the two-year old Sentra my daughter totalled a week ago (my commuter car no less)(she's ok btw), with the '08 GCR turned to the ITR section as my guide. Even though I know it would be 3 - 5 years before I could even consider turning it into another dedicated track car, I just can't seem to steer away from the list. What's even worse, here I sit a life-long Chevy guy, and I'm starting to wonder if maybe the Mustang wouldn't be a good choice. It's just not right I tell you.

May you all be condemned to racing 40 year-old British sportscars in the afterlife!!!

[Z3_GoCar]

The F-body will beat the Mustang unless you're on a really tight track, then probably the BMW sedans would be best. Find her a nice used e-36 328, probably the best all around and while not the least expensive, certainly not as expensive as purchasing a new BMW every 2-5 years.

James

ps. Glad to hear she's alright

[benspeed]

I totally agree driving the car you end up building or buying as a race car gives the driver a better feel and edge for the car.

One depressing thing is that I always drove BMW's when I was a yuppie out of college and I can't bear to drive one again, but the 3 series cars are so damn good. It's like, fight the force, don't let logic drag you over and drive for the empire....

[dj10]

I totally agree driving the car you end up building or buying as a race car gives the driver a better feel and edge for the car.

One depressing thing is that I always drove BMW's when I was a yuppie out of college and I can't bear to drive one again, but the 3 series cars are so damn good. It's like, fight the force, don't let logic drag you over and drive for the empire.... [/b]

I know where you can get a 325is ex autotech car with lots of spares for 15K, short shifter and all.

[Crashtest]

Hey Everyone,
Name is James. I live out in California and am running a S2000 in ITR.
I did all year and was running with a BMW Z3 2.3

here is a post all about the ITR S2k on S2ki.com
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=448922
look around in racing and comp you will find more stuff on the whole thing

Here is the BMW I was running with http://www.godoggoracing.org/
we were close most the year till he upped the power with a full exhaust.

My car Stock motor, Toda header, Stock exhaust with test pipe, comptech intake, stock brakes, no rear sway and a mugen front, KW Comp suspension, 17X8.5's with 275 RA1's, and about 300 lbs of lead added.

now mind you for the 07 season I could do NOTHING for tuning on the ECU because nobody made anything.
as I understand for the 08 season they have opened up the ECU Rule so I will be running a AEM standalone.

My car had a bad alignment all year and I was usually 2 sec off the bimmer. At laguna for the last race I changed to ITE and took all the weight out and ran the same times (aprox) as the BMW.

So.....
with all that said we should be close next year with a properly tuned S and his BMW.

Also as for the build I dont know how much it cost didnt wanna think about that one.
I will say this.
the stock brakes are fine, no need to upgrade more than the pads and fluid.
the chassis is really good with just a good set of coilovers.

anyhow if you have any questions feel free to ask.
jlucas was helping me with this whole thing too at s2ki.com.

picture of the little red beast.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=m...mage&img=479205

[JeffYoung]

James, good to hear from you and thanks for posting.

No head work, and the bottom end is stock? Some power there. However, sounds like you and the 325 are pretty close, that's a good sign for us who worked on classing these cars. Keep us posted on next year.

[Crashtest]

James, good to hear from you and thanks for posting.

No head work, and the bottom end is stock? Some power there. However, sounds like you and the 325 are pretty close, that's a good sign for us who worked on classing these cars. Keep us posted on next year.
[/b]

motor is stock out of a wrecked 60k miles
Josh has over 100k on his motor. I am sure he is going to be building a motor over the winter.
me and the Z3 that Josh Siorta (spelling) drives are close.
last race he changed the full exhaust and had car tuned.
he got down to a 144.3 at Laguna were I was still around the high 145's.
when the ecu comes around it will be more driver than HP in my opinion.
the car works good and should work better with a little more juice!

My only real complaint about the 300 lbs is there was no room for it on the passenger floor so I had to put 100 lbs in the trunk.
it does not really help back there and 300 lbs is allot.
A 200 lb passenger is sitting next to me and I have always been afraid of it shearing off the floor in a major rollover.
other than all that its a good fun car and hope to see more people next year.

[JoshS]

Hey James, good to see you over here.

My car is actually a Z3 2.8, not a 2.3 or a 325.

I don't know if I'll be building a motor over the winter. I think I'm going to stick with this one for another season, until you or someone else (Makashima?) forces my hand! Better to keep that money around for the moment.

My 1:44.3 lap in that last (very short) race was on the one where I had to take evasive action around the spun ITE 928. I lifted big time at the start of the front straight. How fast might that lap have been without that lift?

[Crashtest]

Hey James, good to see you over here.

My car is actually a Z3 2.8, not a 2.3 or a 325.

I don't know if I'll be building a motor over the winter. I think I'm going to stick with this one for another season, until you or someone else (Makashima?) forces my hand! Better to keep that money around for the moment.

My 1:44.3 lap in that last (very short) race was on the one where I had to take evasive action around the spun ITE 928. I lifted big time at the start of the front straight. How fast might that lap have been without that lift?
[/b]

shows you how much I pay attention.
anyhow I don't blame you on the motor it seems to be working fine.
build one and it will DNF you.
we will see what you pull out next year.
I am excited and ready now that the ECU rule has changed.
I hope Makashima does not come ITR with that car he runs.
he pulls me on the straights so much that by the time he was turning in for turn 2 at laguna I was just finished cresting the hill at 1.
I dont think that car would be ITR legal anyhow but that would suck.

[Tristan Smith]

Hey Jeff,
I don't have a GCR handy, but is the lexus IS300 classed in R? Also aren't the Nissan 350z' getting close to being old enough to class? What's your thought on the newer Z?

[JeffYoung]

Tristan! Good to hear from you man. How's the home renovation going? Done I hope, so that we see your ass out at the track more this year.

The 01-02 IS300 is in, and it may be a sleeper. Good power, but a bit porky at 3145.

The 350Z is nearly 300 hp stock isn't it??? That might be a bit much for ITR, unless someone could live with a correspondingly high weight.

[Tristan Smith]

Jeff,

House is almost done, just one more bathroom to do. But regardless, I have a ton of body work to fix, and a motor with a big ol hole in the block to rebuild on the 240sx. So who knows when I will get out again. It's going to cost me a chunk of change I think. I was considering a build on a R car, but that will have to wait another year now. Plus I have my vintage IMSA RS Datsun 200sx to make some "improvements" to, so I can run down some RX-3s in the SVRA reunion races. So many projects, so little money!

Not sure the numbers on the 350z but it wouldn't surprize me.

[Ron Earp]

Hey Tristan,

I'm pretty sure the 350Z is outside the R envelope. I believe those motors started at 275hp in the first year but are now up to 300+ hp. It would appear the car would have a serious weight problem if classed in R.

One day there will need to be an ITQ.....but for now ITR looks to be an extremely good thing for IT.

Ron

[pimpm3]

I am still surprised by the lack of mention of the Type-r Integras they did very well in touring car against the BMW's for years. On top of that they are reliable and there is a ton of support out there for them.

[Ron Earp]

As you know they are classed. It seems I heard in passing of one being built though, but I don't know if I heard that at the track or on this board. They have a light weight in the class and light makes right.

R