ITR Contenders

[benspeed]

Having abandoned ship on the Fiero and thankfully not wasting too much $$ on that project, I've been looking at some ITR candidates to keep me busy over the winter. I like to drive 'em while I work on 'em so I do the motor, intake, exhaust first, then suspension, then the safety stuff.

I'd like to hear what folks think of these cars competition potential and costs to make them run at the pointy end of the field:

Honda S2000 - First choice - I think this will be the car to have but very $$ - I predict this is the class winner

Porsche - the 968 or the 944S2 looks like the best of the marque from a handling and power potential. Anybody thinking Boxster? These are my second choices

Nissan 300Zx - Third choice - this is a car I'm really taking a hard look at. Good balance, cheap cars out there, sorta heavy for the brakes, lots of support. 3000GT and Stealth - just don't grab me.

BMW - the 325 is a great candidate with additional classes to run in. 328 looking good. 330 very expensive

Mustang, Firebird, Camaro - lighter than AS but with a six banger and ITS running similar times to regional AS cars with V8s I just don't see these cars having a chance. Anybody disagree???

What should I also take a look at???

Gotta put that new Millamatic 250 to work.....

Cheers,

Ben

[tnord]

the weight of the S2000 make me worried about the typical honda stuff.....brakes, hubs, axles. slow corners onto straights it's really going to suffer.

i like the BMW option. 325 or 328 E36. I always tend to pick the lighter options just from the perspective of being easier on consumables. i'd want to know if the 328 had any different brakes, gearing, or head flow characteristcs before i made my choice.

i think the Z32 has great potential, but having owned one, i'd never race it only for the reason of not wanting to work in that engine bay.

i'm waiting for the new miata to be classed.

[gran racing]

Honda S2000 - First choice - I think this will be the car to have but very $$[/b]

Interesting. I don't think this will be the car to have due to its spec weight. Why do you think it will be so expensive to build compared to other ITR cars? There's already a fair amount of development in the Honda Challenge world for the cars, and there's very little to be gained with an engine build. From my discussions with others, it's not even worth building the engine since it's already at the maximum. 240 hp from a 4 cycl. I've also heard of issues when removing the ABS. I have an '01 and have fantasized about making it a racecar, although my '87 Prelude is just too cool to do that. Oh yeah, plus my wife / wallet would never allow an ITR car.

[JeffYoung]

Plus no torque.

I think if someone builds a 4th Gen Toyota Supra to the max, everyone else had better watch out.

I've seen scary horsepower numbers fo the Z32 in showroom stock form. IT build might be out of this world.

The 3.0 and 2.8 BMWs will be strong.

[pimpm3]

How about the type-r integra or a Celica GTS.

Plenty of aftermarket support, handles well (look at world challenge) good brakes, but the kicker is the 400 lb weight advantage. The Celica weighs 2280 and in racing trim should make about 190HP at the wheels.

No torque compared to the Bimmers or the Nissans but light weight goes along way.

[Knestis]

I'd be sorely tempted - have been, in fact - by the BMW options, starting with current ITS e36 cars. Hard to beat a known quantity, where money can be spent on actual development and track time, rather than breaking new ground. The knowledge base is there so it becomes about racing on-track rather than fiddling with new parts.

K

EDIT - note that my choice is probably skewed by my enduro emphasis. RWD is always going to be a better option over the long haul, given the power involved in this class.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I would go with the rare E46 325ci. 2 doors ('cause I like that) , E46 suspension, proven 2.5L power and the minimum weight to go with that...

Wicked!

[jlucas]

Honda S2000 - First choice - I think this will be the car to have but very $$ - I predict this is the class winner
[/b]

Not at it's current weight. It's heavier in ITR than in T3!!
But someone has to build one before they will adjust it. I'd love to do it but the checkbook does not agree.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not at it's current weight. It's heavier in ITR than in T3!!
But someone has to build one before they will adjust it. I'd love to do it but the checkbook does not agree.
[/b]

What does the ITR weight have to do with the T3 weight? It's about relative performance amongst the ITR cars with IT-legal engine and suspension mods. Remember, it starts out with as much at 60 more stock hp than other cars in the class....

[jlucas]

I realize that. It's just to put the weight in perspective.
However the weight wouldn't matter if it could make the power your expecting it to. From what I've been able to learn so far I don't see that motor making the typical IT gains; it's already very, very optimized.

Someone could build it keeping all the interior bits & stock suspension so that it could easily go back to T3 if you were unhappy with ITR. Heck the interior can even stay installed since the rules say "may remove". You could easily sell the IT spec suspension parts / built motor and go back to T3 pretty easy.

I still want to build one. If I could find a cheap enough donor (or a partner), I'd still be tempted.

[JLawton]

Ben, Ben, Ben............

You need an intervention!!! You are a total crack head!!!!

AADD


Auto Attention Deficit Disorder...........

[Greg Amy]

You need an intervention!!! You are a total crack head!!!![/b]

We should introduce Ben to .RJ and KSchultz...

[lateapex911]

I've been pondering the same issue.

I love RWD.
And there is no Mazda to choose from.

I got an 944S2 to build, but when Milledge quoted me 15K to build a basic engine, then told me it would take another 10K on top of that in misc stuff, tuning and an ECU, I thought twice. Then I looked at the suspension parts from Elephant, etc, the PIA the rear suspension is to adjust, and the usual costs to cage etc, and came up with a number I didn't want to race...and wreck. So, for me, the 944/968 are out, which is too bad, because I like the combo from a competition standpoint.

I like the S2000, except it will never make process power. 240hp from 2.0 litres is the highest specific power in the industry, or close to it. There aint much there in my opinion to be gained in an IT build. Not sure why you think it would be expensive. I'd consider it if the weight went down, but I already drive a torquelsss back of the pack car. Don't need another one, no matter how cool it is.

I think the BMW options look good, esp since they have been developed. And built car is always cheaper....

[tnord]

I love RWD.
And there is no Mazda to choose from.
[/b]

if can stand a couple more years in A, there's about to be some cool Mazda options for R. Right?

the MX-5 should be the cheapest way to get in the class. lots of cars, awesome Mazda support, 4cyl vs 6, and people know how to make them work already.

I think the BMW options look good, esp since they have been developed. And built car is always cheaper....
[/b]

if i was going ITR right now, this would be exactly why I'd go with the BMW.

[gran racing]

I like the S2000, except it will never make process power. [/b]

I can't imagine anyone disputing this and it sounds like people are in agreement that the car is on the heavy side. Given that, why is the car so heavy after it was put through the classification process? Do you remember what you guys used for estimated whp after a build? Just curious.

[JeffYoung]

I've got a proposal to class the RX8 written and in my drawer, not because I want to race a Wotary Wocket, but because I think the car should be in there.

I also originally intended to build an R car immediately, but there is so much development work left to be done on the TR and it is getting competitive, plus I basically have enough spares to run the damn thing for ten years, that I am sticking with the TR8 and S for a while.

The next few years should be fun to watch ITR and see how it shakes out. Right now, it is about what we (the guys who put it together) expected -- mostly BMWs, with a few Porschephiles thrown in.

Year 3 (2009) should be when we see more of a real class with a variety of makes as cars that took a year or so to build come on line.

Will be interesting. Congrats to Jake, Andy, Kirk, Scott G., Raymond, Bill Miller, Ron, Dick, et. al for the hard work on getting this up and running. Good working with all you guys (and hope I didn't miss anyone).

[Andy Bettencourt]

I can't imagine anyone disputing this and it sounds like people are in agreement that the car is on the heavy side. Given that, why is the car so heavy after it was put through the classification process? Do you remember what you guys used for estimated whp after a build? Just curious. [/b]

This car was indeed special in it's process power estimate. In fact, the most conservative estimate to date. 15% IIRC. Sorry, won't go any lower than that.

It's of similar weight to cars starting with as much as 40 less hp.

[Jeremy Billiel]

We should introduce Ben to .RJ and KSchultz...
[/b]

I don't know Ben... You coud take the crown from me for most waffling in one year. I have been waffling on selling my car (I am not BTW), but you are waffling on classes, cars and everything in-between!

[gran racing]

waffling? You are sooooo beyond waffling. LOL

[GKR_17]

This car was indeed special in it's process power estimate. In fact, the most conservative estimate to date. 15% IIRC. Sorry, won't go any lower than that.

It's of similar weight to cars starting with as much as 40 less hp.
[/b]

As published in the July 2006 Fastrack, a max built S2000 was assumed to have 276hp at the crank. Right on 15%, and the only car I'm aware of that low. The BMW (E30) M3 was even assumed to get 25%...