2008 MARRS Schedule

[grjones1]

"All DC Region volunteers and drivers" seems fair. Anything that gives us a true reading on whether or not most of the active membership prefers a race at VIR.

So far I think it's 4 to 1 for VIR.

Actually the 169 participation this year is statistically representative considering that probably only 30% of the drivers and workers go out of region. but I know it's asking a lot for people to reach that conclusion. As far as having problems with NCR, I don't think any race weekend goes without some dissatisfaction with officialdom - that's part of the game.

[JamesB]

G. R. I don't see why your here screaming. I skipped 2007 because I knew it was going to be horrible on a 2 day program. I told my rep I would skip it again in 2008 if it stayed with the 2 day compressed schedule. But if you want to go, go. Just know it wont be a points event, which to me is not that big of a deal for 2008 since I was going to skip VIR anyway.

[grjones1]

James,
You missed some fun racing (if you enjoy traffic). And really those people (NCR) push the schedule along (few delays). I would argue also that we get as many on-course minutes at VIR as we do elsewhere even in a 2-day venue. (Two quals: 4-6 laps, 15 minutes each= 30 minutes; and two races: 10 laps 30-45 each minutes= 90 minutes for total 120 minutes). That's pretty close to a Summit 3-day event 2 quals: 30 minutes and two races: 90 minutes for total 120 minutes).

If I sound like I'm screaming I guess I just don't appreciate people pretending to want my input and then ignoring it. But it happens that way sometimes. I think we might have worked a little harder to resolve our differences and come out with a MARRS race at VIR in 2008.

[spnkzss]

G. R. I don't see why your here screaming. I skipped 2007 because I knew it was going to be horrible on a 2 day program. I told my rep I would skip it again in 2008 if it stayed with the 2 day compressed schedule. But if you want to go, go. Just know it wont be a points event, which to me is not that big of a deal for 2008 since I was going to skip VIR anyway.
[/b]

I guess I missed all the arguments. I enjoyed myself last year. I didn't like racing ITA cars in my ITC car, but that is ok. Next time I'll be racing ITA cars in an ITA car so it'll be more fun. The only other problem I had was while I was sitting in impound the tech inspector was very rude to me about my window net flipped up. It is connected with a quick release at the top AND the bottom. I ignored him and continued on my way.

I even did the practice day because I have never been before. I would gladly go back, jut not in '07 because I'm building a new car. My only concern is just since we stopped will we ever go again? It kind of reminds me of the whole split grid thing. We didn't do it once and it basically went away. I DO NOT WANT TO BRING THAT INTO THIS CONVERSATION, I'm just using it as a comparision. You get rid of something that you have been doing and you prove to some people you don't need it so it goes away for good. THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING.... PLEASE.

[grjones1]

Spanky,
I'm sorry I wont have the opportunity to chase you again. (Not that it looked like I would have caught you.) (C is taking a real beating with numbers.)

Appreciate your comments and understood. I guess if we spend our entry fee at VIR instead of elsewhere the message might get across.

[jjjanos]

All I can say is if you guys feel that the majority of the MARRS drivers were happy with the way things went at VIR this year (even thought only 30% of the drivers even went) then by all means take up a petition, start up a poll, whatever, just do something other than coming on a website and bitching about it.
[/b]

30% is probably a gross underestimate.

Approx 170 drivers competed in the MARRS-designated classes.
Approx 300 drivers are regular MARRS competitors.

I leave the math to your calculation.

re: returning to VIR -

Some drivers did not want to return at all. Some did regardless. Some wanted to return if various concerns were addressed. It is not at all clear whether a majority would be in favor of returning now that our concerns were expressed to NCR. It is not at clear what NCRs' response was to those concerns.

The competition committee did not meet between the open meeting and the meeting where the final schedule was delivered to the committee.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a driver to gauge sentiment in a public forum in advance of lobbying for an addition to the 2008 MARRS schedule - particular since the date is open as for as MARRS competitors are concerned. In fact, I would expect someone to gauge support prior to raising the issue with either the competition committee or the BoD.

[Cobrar05]

G. R. I don't see why your here screaming. I skipped 2007 because I knew it was going to be horrible on a 2 day program. I told my rep I would skip it again in 2008 if it stayed with the 2 day compressed schedule. But if you want to go, go. Just know it wont be a points event, which to me is not that big of a deal for 2008 since I was going to skip VIR anyway.
[/b]

I don't understand the problem with the 2 day schedule. As I am a SEDiv participant all the doubles are two days plus a practice day.

What is it about the 2 day schedule that makes it so "horrible"??

I will also offer that while Summit is a nice place, Nelson Ledges is not so nice and VIR is considered by many to be the best road course in North America. You can make and argument for some other courses in that best course conversation, but Summit isnt in there and Nelson Ledges certainly isn't.

Why would anyone blow off an annual event on the full course at VIR?

[jjjanos]

I don't understand the problem with the 2 day schedule. As I am a SEDiv participant all the doubles are two days plus a practice day.

What is it about the 2 day schedule that makes it so "horrible"??

Why would anyone blow off an annual event on the full course at VIR?
[/b]

89 cars ranging from ITA to ITC. Fun for an enduro. Not fun for a sprint with very limited track time.

Qualifying determined not by fast time but whether you were unlucky enough to get put behind a high HP car that parks himself in turns coupled with the futility of going into the pits to separate yourself from that car because you're only going to get a few laps. Pit and all you do is come out behind another brick or be a brick for someone else. Hang back and try to get distance for a flying lap and be a brick for someone else.

Front of the field at Oak Tree while the back of the field is just being released from the grid.
Pace laps done at race speed on stone cold tires.

[erlrich]

30% is probably a gross underestimate.

Approx 170 drivers competed in the MARRS-designated classes.
Approx 300 drivers are regular MARRS competitors.

I leave the math to your calculation.[/b]

Yeah, except if you're going to play that game let's play it right: approx 110 regular MARRS competitors went to VIR, out of 300 who are regular MARRS competitors (or 36%), or approx. 170 MARRS competitors (i.e. competitors who earned points in at least one MARRS event) went to VIR, out of 580 who are MARRS competitors (or 30%). How about we split the difference, and say 33%?

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a driver to gauge sentiment in a public forum in advance of lobbying for an addition to the 2008 MARRS schedule - particular since the date is open as for as MARRS competitors are concerned. In fact, I would expect someone to gauge support prior to raising the issue with either the competition committee or the BoD.[/b]

The only problem with that IMO, and I think Gregg was trying to point it out, is that trying to gauge sentiment for what all MARRS drivers want by posting something on a forum dedicated to the IT class, where only a minority of the MARRS IT drivers frequent is kind of pointless. If you want a true representation of what the MARRS drivers want, then you need to poll the MARRS drivers.

That would be like creating a new IT rule based on what the small percentage of drivers who frequent this forum want, and we know that would never fly, right?

[mlytle]

allow me to join gregg as one of the decision making enties for the sked...i am the ITR/ITS drivers rep.

1/ in thee WDCR, we don't make decisions by the popular vote of the majority. every class has the opportunity to have its voice represented through its drivers rep. you have an issue you want addressed? talk to your drivers rep. don't like the way the drivers rep is runing things? well then volunteer to take the job next year.

2/ sked for 08 - all the drivers reps talked with their drivers and got a feel for what was desired for 08. then we all hashed it out over several meetings. desire was for two away races. one at vir and one somewhere else. the somewhere else was nelsons. there were many issues brought up with the mothers day vir race having to do with too many cars, the track sked and most importantly, the mothers day weekend. there was a strong push to not travel on mothers day. sooo, we tried for a vir date with a different region. it didn't work. oh well. we also tried to swap in a charlotte date but that didn't work either. getting on a region calendar is not easy. there is a lot of competition for dates. ok, so it didn't work for 08 and we are stuck with a "one track pony" call it the summit point road racing series instead of marrs. there are a bunch of us that don't like it, but there were no hidden agendas or vendettas against vir. it is just the way the cookie crumbled when we tried to improve the sked.

3/ the august open meeting - we deliberately DID NOT do a "poll". the group at the meeting is generally not representative of the entire racing crowd. we have the open meeting to DISCUSS options, not make decisions. the comp committee takes what we learn at these meetings back with us to our regular decision processes.

4/ don't call gayle - she has enough on her plate. we (the drivers reps) are who you should be talking with.

5/ more 08 sked - as gregg said, the marrs sked for 08 really allows for some outside the series travel. nearly all the marrs races are the last weekend of the month. enjoy the opportunity to travel.

6/ 09 sked - looking forward to having AT LEAST three away races in 09. personnally, i feel it is pretty lame to call it "MARRS" if you can win the series without ever traveling away from summit point. I feel it should be required to do several away races if you want to win. you know where my votes on the sked will be going...

marshall
ITR #64
ITR/ITS WDCR drivers rep

[grjones1]

This is one point of access to use. Why not use it?

And while we're throwing numbers around: Given the choice of going to VIR, Nelson, or the Glen, MARRS drivers choose 170 to 120 or so to what? 30 respectively in favor of VIR.

And the point here involves active MARRS participants what's wrong with the 300 actual figure? People who race once a year probably go to the most convenient location and one must expect WDC "casual" participants to go to Summit.

Hey, the "money" went to VIR hands down. And it would probably have gone again in 2008 given the opportunity to gain MARRS points there. Admit it, most MARRS drivers want to race at VIR.


Thanks Marshall. This was the kind of response I was hoping for: some real information. At least someone had the guts to say the decision was not based on the wishes of most of the participants. But like I said, if you aren't going to give my vote consideration, don't ask for it. And again the "Rep" thing is just administrative rant meaning "If you don't like it go work in T&S or something, leave me alone."

And please extend my best wishes to Gayle.

[mlytle]

this is obviously going nowwhere.

the "most" drivers did not want to go to vir on mothers day weekend for a double. input was conveyed to the drivers reps who voted for them. period. end.

the decision was to try a different weekend or a different track.

the 08 sked is not going to change, no matter how many internet polls are started.

you want to race at vir mothers day? vote with your trailer and drive down there anyway in 08.

[jjjanos]

Yeah, except if you're going to play that game let's play it right: approx 110 regular MARRS competitors went to VIR, out of 300 who are regular MARRS competitors (or 36%), or approx. 170 MARRS competitors (i.e. competitors who earned points in at least one MARRS event) went to VIR, out of 580 who are MARRS competitors (or 30%). How about we split the difference, and say 33%?[/b]

Nope.

Define Regular MARRS competitor. I'd hazard a guess that anyone serious about running for a season position was there - though I'd love to see the statistical analysis.

Of the 176 people who competed in 50% of the events, 109 were there or 62%.

I'm getting an excel version of the final points and will do the same analysis for the entire set of entrants.

The only problem with that IMO, and I think Gregg was trying to point it out, is that trying to gauge sentiment for what all MARRS drivers want by posting something on a forum dedicated to the IT class, where only a minority of the MARRS IT drivers frequent is kind of pointless. If you want a true representation of what the MARRS drivers want, then you need to poll the MARRS drivers. [/b]

Other than specmiata.com, where are you going to find a larger concentration of the drivers? More importantly, it simply is a data point to be used and is no less scientific or accurate than the who wants to bitch about VIR method used by may DRs.

Not all of the DRs or chiefs are as diligent as Gregg. When I was an active flagger, the F&C chiefs never polled the troops. I know of one IT rep who stated that his drivers DID want to return to VIR and yet said nothing at the meeting. The system used by DC isn't infallible.

No harm can come of seeing what the feeling is here.

[mlytle]

all the data analysis in the world ain't gonna prove squat because;
-it doesn't show how many folks went to vir because they HAD to for points, whether they wanted to or not.
and
-it doesn't show how many don't want to go back due to the conditions last year.

analyse away.....

[jjjanos]

this is obviously going nowwhere.

the "most" drivers did not want to go to vir on mothers day weekend for a double. input was conveyed to the drivers reps who voted for them. period. end.[/b]

I call road apples.

Which is it - we aren't going to VIR because of the "issues" related to 2-day double and track time or Mother's Day? Cause at the time VIR/Mom's day was first raised it was presented as the operational aspects and at the Comp meeting where the schedule was dictated to us, I was told the same thing - the operational issues. Mothers' Day was a secondary issue.

So, now it's a Mother's Date issue exclusively? Riiiiighhhht.

the decision was to try a different weekend or a different track.[/b]

Wow - so Gayle lied to me when she said at the last comp meeting that NCR had no response about turning the event into either a 3-day or a single? She'd have no reason to raise this issues if it was a Moms Day thing. I'll have to ask Gayle about that.

the 08 sked is not going to change, no matter how many internet polls are started.[/b]

Why? I thought the Doctrine of Papal Infalibility related only to decisions made by the Pope. Guess I need to brush up on my latin cause I clear missed the bit about the Comp Committee.

you want to race at vir mothers day? vote with your trailer and drive down there anyway in 08.
[/b]

Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. You don't want to run for MARRS points on Mothers' Day - vote with your trailer and don't go.

Let's cut to the chase - the most vocal drivers reps don't want to race on Mothers' Day, therefore and regardless of what additional or new information may be gathered, MARRS shall not race on Mothers Day.

all the data analysis in the world ain't gonna prove squat because;
-it doesn't show how many folks went to vir because they HAD to for points, whether they wanted to or not.
and
-it doesn't show how many don't want to go back due to the conditions last year.

analyse away.....
[/b]

yep and trying to shout down someone attempting to gather that information won't show it either - but it will guarantee that those who don't want to go back to VIR get their way.

Oddly, very reminiscent of the way competition committee meetings work.


And frankly, if the idea of not returning to VIR for mothers day is so damn popular, then G. Robert's attempt to whip up support won't go anywhere.

So, why the attempt to muzzle him?

Y'all think about that.

[grjones1]

you want to race at vir [sic] mothers day? vote with your trailer and drive down there anyway in 08.

Gee, I think I heard that a couple of times. Sounds like, "If you don't like it, volunteer for something."

To tell you the truth I think the whole "Mother's Day" thing was a hoax. A few people may not like racing on Mother's Day, but we and a myriad of other racing bodies have done it for decades, as I said at the MARRS 7 meeting, take your mother to the race.

If nothing else I think we've proven that WDCR leadership is an oligarchy (always has been, why am I outraged?). Any dissent will be dealt with with sarcasm or arrogance, or simply "get lost."

[mlytle]

wow dude, you appear to have some serious issues.

have a nice day.

[grjones1]

Yea "Dude," I have serious issues with people who pretend to respect the wishes of others when all along they are interested only in furthering their own self-aggrandizement and their own hidden agendas.

Yes I have issues with people who are supposed to be looking after the people they represent and who look to them to exercise decent judgement, and those looked to find a way to spoil the opportunity to race within our series at one of the best (if not the best) racing facility in the country. They whine about large fields, mixed groups, one pace driver who doesn't know what he's doing (like it doesn't happen everywhere at least once a year), and getting their feelings hurt because some idiot in the tower doesn't respond to a call. Then they create the issue of Mother's Day like we haven't raced on that day for the last 40 years. Give me a break.

A given set of luminaries got their egos bruised and decided they'd get even by picking up their toys and stayiing home. Problem is most of us wanted to stay and play because we were having a good time in spite of a few "official lapses of judgement" like we haven't ever struggled through lapses of official judgement in our racing experience. Yea I have issues, Dude.

[ajn]

wow dude, you appear to have some serious issues.

have a nice day.
[/b]

[spnkzss]

I guess there really is some miscommunication going on. There obviously was in issue last year somewhere. People complained and we (WDCR) decided we wouldn't go again. Not as a group anyways. Again, I hope this just doesn't mean we pissed off the other region enough that they won't welcome us back.

On a side note, it's interesting, (myself included) that it is the ITC drivers that want to go back to VIR so bad.