2008 MARRS Schedule

[lateapex911]

I'm confused...and I am sure I'm not seeing the deep down facts, or have them wrong. But, it seems like Jones didn't really compete in the MARRS series last year, so whats the big deal? Just go to the race and forget about Mars points? If the track is cool go race and have fun? We're all big boys and can race wherever we darn please, right? I know I'll be going to VIR next year, and I bet I have a great time with my friends from the area.

[jjjanos]

I'm not endorsing the idea that the CC got this wrong. I'm endorsing the idea that it might have got it wrong and I see no harm in someone trying to determine that.

Frankly, I'd like to go to VIR over Mothers Day and the likelihood that I go depends on whether MARRS is there for the double M/S event. If MARRS goes, I'll proably crew or flag. If they don't, I'll try to drive the weekend. Why? 89 cars in a single group won't happen if MARRS isn't there.

I'm confused...and I am sure I'm not seeing the deep down facts, or have them wrong. But, it seems like Jones didn't really compete in the MARRS series last year, so whats the big deal?[/b]

re: G.R. Jones finished 4th in the points for ITC.

re: deep down facts - traditional SCCA problems - large group of alpha males, lack of communication and the traditional feeling, whether justified or not, that higher command is promoting its own agenda and not the wishes of the rank-and-file.

Alpha males: I think this one explains itself.

Communication: The committee last issued official minutes...never. Reliance on DRs to get the word out insufficient as some reps are good about soliciting input and providing reports, others are not so good. E.g. is the reason the date or operational matters?

From my DR, I was left with the impresion that it was a combination of both, but that if progress was made on the operational matters, we would return if another VIR date could not be had. Others are maintaining that the issue was the specific date only and that a return for the double was never even on the table. That's a communication breakdown.

Agendas: We've just been told that the only independently verifiable source of driver sentiment - the open meeting - is completely disregraded as a source for determining drivers' desires. It is only to provide additional options. Well, there's not much point in having the bloody meeting then is there?

Agendas: A driver who participates in the series is attempting to determine whether the committee accurately represented the desires of the majority of the drivers and he is basically told to STFU and live with what he's been told. Kind of gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling about just how accurately the wishes of the drivers have been represented, doesn't it?

The committee bascially can make decisions against the wishes of the majority of the participants - both drivers and officials - in the series because the committee's decisions are done by majority vote of those sitting on the committee regardless of how many stakeholders they represent. Think Senate, not House of Reps. It then it can correctly claim that the majority prevailed, but at the same time, the majority really didn't. Or did it?

E.g. the pace car rep gets the same vote that the F&C chief does. ITC gets the same vote that SM gets. FF, CF, FA, FB, FE, FM, FC each could get a vote despite there being about 9 people in total who compete in those classes while ITA, who represents 20+ gets a single vote. Thank gawd the fast formula guys only send a single rep.

Heck, I'm in ITC and I think my own class probably shouldn't have a rep in 2008 based on the projected participation in the class, but as long as I'm entitled to a vote for the about 5 drivers who are going to compete, I'm in favor of using it.

[JamesB]

To answer the things thrown out at me.

Why I dont like the 2 day double. Shorter time on track but twice a day prep for the car and less time on course per run. With MARRS there due to the compressed groups and sessions to make it a 2 day double you have NO chance at a clean qualifing lap unless your out early, even with the 3 day setup with less cars per group it was hard to put down a good qualifing lap with traffic. In the end it's a very long tow to be stuffed on a crowded track that you love to race on...the fun just does not outweight the work for me.

I spoke with my trailer in 07. When asked about 08, I voiced my opinion, another 90 car run group no thanks, I won't be there.

Mothers day has nothing to do with it, I am single and my mother knows even if she lived close by I would be racing if a points race was on the schedule. I just saw how maddening it was for more then one class to get off grid and line up even remotely close to get a decent start, so its just not worth it to me. I dont mind playing in traffic, its fun at time, but not what I want to deal with for an entire race.

And I feel like I get proper representation from my DR and agree with his decisions. He has gotten better about communicating with the group when we are not at the track, and has always responded to my questions and requests. That and the 08 schedule doesnt bother me at all, I like it since it gives me the chance to run off to other tracks if I feel the desire.

[grjones1]

"But, it seems like Jones didn't really compete in the MARRS series last year...," Gulick

Ah Jake, you never get it right. But again I'm not the issue -the issue is "taxation without representation."

[lateapex911]

Point being that when peole get all upset about series changes (Narrc, MArrs, whatever) they are usually looking to win it. From what i've read here, you came in 4th in small field. So it appears points can't be your motive. As I said, I am missing something.

It also seems that some who post here are fine with how they are represented, others not. But hey, the club is a big multi layered machine, we all know that. And remember the phrase,"If you want it done your way, do it yourself". Ok, I paraphrased that,...

[grjones1]

[quote]
So it appears points can't be your motive. As I said, I am missing something.

How about : " I like racing at VIR and I'd like some (MARRS) points when I race there and most of the drivers in the series (MARRS) feel the same. And I'd like to see the wishes of most of the drivers followed.

(Why is it necessary to belittle my racing effort? What is your motive? [And not that it makes for a Tinker's damn, but I won 3 races in 15+car ITC fields against some pretty good drivers in 2003-2004 and finsihed 2nd in the championship year before last. No great shakes but I'll stand on it.] Partcipated in 6 out of 8 MARRS weekends in 2007; so why would I not be interested in points? You make no sense.)

Happy Thanksgiving.

[RP Performance]

FYI I think that Nasa will be at VIR 3 times in 2008 starting in Febuary. They have 2 races every weekend lots of track time.

[Cobrar05]

Go back and look at last season's NASA results.
February, two race groups 66 and 72 cars. 5 sessions total all weekend.
March, three runs groups 66, 53, 57. 5 sessions
July, same story.

VIR is popular. The turnout is heavy. When you go to road atlanta and sebring its the same deal. if you want clean qualifying laps settle for second string tracks like NL, SPR, and CMP. Nothing against those tracks. I only point out that the great tracks attract a big crowd.

[Matt Rowe]

Except that the track length is different. Once you apply that factor and show cars per mile those numbers aren't any different than an average MARRS weekend at SPR which I personally don't have a problem with.

Of course the other issue with the track length is the time may be the same but you get fewer laps in qualifying which makes a big difference when trying to learn the track and get a quick time.

Not to be picky but you can say "second string tracks" and also say don't take it personally.

[grjones1]

Just to keep things perfectly clear: I don't think anyone wants to suggest that those of us who race at Summit habitually have any less love for it and how things are run there than we have for a race out-of-region at VIR. Summit and the people who run things there have served us well for as long as we have raced there. And the numbers of people who show up to race a MARRS weekend at Summit certainly rival any other track in the country.

True VIR gives you higher sustained speeds and twisties and certainly the amenities are attractive but Summit too is an exciting course and a great place to race sports cars (as much fun as you can have on four, or two, wheels).

Let's not turn this into a comparisom between Summit and VIR. The issue is where the MARRS people want to race other than Summit.

Thank you

[Cobrar05]

Not to be picky but you can say "second string tracks" and also say don't take it personally.
[/b]

I don't think you are being picky. I could have said second tier rather than second string to have been more respectful.

My best track is Roebling Road and its a fine track. I would say that its of the same class as Summit Point.
They are both in that second tier of tracks that fall below Watkins Glen, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America and so forth. VIR is in that class with high profile race courses and Summit Point is not.

I think you knew that I meant that.

[Charlie Broring]

Great tracks don't mean great racing. Last year the racing at humble Nelson Ledges was better then overcrowded VIR.

I don't see the point of this rant. If you want to race VIR Mothers Day than just go. I know some of the ITB drivers plan on going. Without MARRS it should be less overcrowded and a better race.

Charlie

[grjones1]

Charlie,
Do we take that as a vote for not wanting to go to VIR within the MARRS series?

[Charlie Broring]

No. I took the position that seemed to best represent the feelings of the ITB drivers that I represent. ITB wanted to return to VIR if the format was improved to alleviate the track overcrowding and give up better racing. With the 2007 format the drivers feelings were very mixed and there was a lot of dissatisfaction from those who went this year. Most of the other drivers reps were more negative about returning. I really don't think you appreciate the effort that went into the schedule.

Enjoy the 2008 MARRS season for what it is. The dates are well spaced and offer plenty of opportunity to go to VIR, MO, or the Glen if you wish. However, it's unrealistic to expect MARRS to be everything for everybody.

Charlie

[grjones1]

I don't expect WDCR or SCCA to be able to please everybody all the time, that is obviously ridiculous. It was simply my impression and the impression of many who stood at the CC meeting at MARRS 7 that the schedule had already been set as far as VIR was concerned and nothing we said was going to change the CC's mind.

How many wanted to go back should not be superceded by who wanted to go back.

Thus the dissatisfaction: if you are going to make decisions before we ever get to express our opinions, why bother to ask our opinions? You say that many of the B people wanted to go back; I still earnestly beleive many others wanted to go back and the reasons for not going back leave some reason for doubt especially when we are not privy to discussions with NCR.

Just because a few driver's don't want to race on Mother's Day is not enough to do away with that weekend any more than it would be reason if a race weekend were scheduled on Father's Day or my daughters' birthdays or interefered with celebrations on Labor Day, or Valentine's Day, or whatever. Did NCR say they would give no consideration to changing some of the format? Did they say they would not correct problems with corner control? Would they not consider regroupng the fields or getting rid of that clueless pace car driver?

Look, we all aren't going to get our way, but we all do pay our dues and entry fees and put forth the effort to support and participate. That does give us a right to know fully what's going on and to put in our 2 cents and have it count, and this business of "we've made our decision now shut up and leave us alone" is not an attitude anybody should have to put up with.

I'm sure we all appreciate the effort our volunteers exert (after all we are all "volunteers" to whatever degree; however, those who volunteer to represent us should do just that: represent all of us. And in this case until we know what went down we're not all so very sure that our preferences were represented, or if they were represented were followed.

[BRAD BARNHOUSE]

I applaud the DC region for their accomplishments. It's impossible to race everywhere,you have to choose. I have raced the NYSRRC twice and MARRS twice. I chose to run MARRS last year, and that meant not going to MO for the IT fest, or Beaverun because they were on the same weekend as a MARRS race. Those tracks are 30 minutes, and 2hrs respectively from here. I passed several racers on the PA turnpike going the other way. I would like to see the MARRS Series race at several different tracks. I know there are some that would only like to race at SP. Is that not only a track championship.
There are so many playgrounds. Go and have fun.
Brad

[mlytle]

now i know how the ITAC felt two years ago trying to defend against the conspiracy theory crowd. where is that black helicopter avatar?

grjones - at least three of us on the comp committee have explained how the process worked in this thread. there is no conspiracy against vir. there is no movement to get rid of mothers day. there is no small group of members driving a hidden agenda. there is a group of volunteers who are putting a lot of work into running a race series for 400+ drivers to enjoy. you have been told what "went down". you appear to be ignoring reality in favor of continuing your rants against the sked for 08 for some reason.

[spnkzss]

I applaud the DC region for their accomplishments. It's impossible to race everywhere,you have to choose. I have raced the NYSRRC twice and MARRS twice. I chose to run MARRS last year, and that meant not going to MO for the IT fest, or Beaverun because they were on the same weekend as a MARRS race. Those tracks are 30 minutes, and 2hrs respectively from here. I passed several racers on the PA turnpike going the other way. I would like to see the MARRS Series race at several different tracks. I know there are some that would only like to race at SP. Is that not only a track championship.
There are so many playgrounds. Go and have fun.
Brad
[/b]

Yeah but the question is, are you coming back to play in '08?

[Dave Ebersole]

I live in Western PA but race the MARRS series. I raced once at VIR many years ago (2001 or 2002 I think) and love the track but don't like the 8 hour tow so I haven't been back. I have raced at the Glen and Nelson and would certainly race Mid-Ohio if we did a MARRS there. I would even race at Pocono if it were on the MARRS schedule. By the way, I raced in 8 of the 10 MARRS races in '07. The only 2 I missed were the VIR double.

[Andy Bettencourt]

now i know how the ITAC felt two years ago trying to defend against the conspiracy theory crowd. where is that black helicopter avatar?
[/b]

Welcome!!!