Results, rumours and inuendo...

[rabbidmk1]

No Dog in this hunt but
top 4 slots on ITB grid VW Golf
And I think they finished 1-4 as well. Looks like some one needs to look at the classification or weight of this car.

Cheers SteveP [/b]

Ok, not to continue any bad blood here but why all the animosity against mk3 VW's. I seem to remember that only a few years ago the car was classed in ITA and was not competitive.

Chris Shafsma (SP? sorry) in CHI. region has consistently kicked my butt on shorter courses in his MK2 (which is very much a B car). From my experience (having a track record at Road America) the mk3 chassis belongs on a longer course like what was witnessed at the ARRC this year. I can promise all that if the race was on a 2 mile course, the results would be much different.

In all honesty this is the first year that many people including myself have gone out and done 10/10 builds on this chassis. It is a natural progression for the sport and I feel it belongs in B at the same weight.


On to the tech and tear downs...

I am all for an increase in entry fee to have complete tear downs after the race, it is the only way to 100% eliminate any issues fairly.

Also please excuse my ignorance here and explain how these are done.

What is a Whistler and a Cam Doctor? How do they check gear ratios? With the open final drive rule it seems like they would have to tear every case apart to do this.


A little confused,

Aaron

[Butch Kummer]

I assume it was an oversight, but technically, the SPO and SPU cars were not elligible to compete per the supps. See rule 3. I think there were more that didn't fit the SPO/SPU requirements here: "Vehicles must not be other wise classed in the GCR and Category Specifications." Not that this really matters, but why have a rule if it's not enforced?

Grafton
[/b]

Yes, it was an oversight. I actually left quite a few classes out of Item 3 on the Supps. I'll make sure and correct that before the 2008 event.

[GKR_17]

What is a Whistler and a Cam Doctor? How do they check gear ratios? With the open final drive rule it seems like they would have to tear every case apart to do this.
[/b]

As I understand, the whistler is able to measure volumes inside the combustion chamber by access through the spark plug hole. With it, you can check the displacement at both ends of stoke, so in the end you have displacement and compression ratio. I haven't actually seen the device, so someone with better information could elaborate.

The cam doctor measures the profile of a cam, which can then be compared to the known specs.

Without knowing the final drive, you can't determine the exact ratio of any one gear, but you can get the ratio change between each gear, which is really all that matters. This is such an easy check I'd like to see it done on everyone under the shed (at least the top 3). There are only a few cars classed (TR8 for example) that wouldn't see huge benefits from a minor tweak to a gear or two.

[RSTPerformance]

Without knowing the final drive, you can't determine the exact ratio of any one gear, but you can get the ratio change between each gear, which is really all that matters. This is such an easy check I'd like to see it done on everyone under the shed (at least the top 3). There are only a few cars classed (TR8 for example) that wouldn't see huge benefits from a minor tweak to a gear or two.
[/b]

How do you check it?

Raymond

[GKR_17]

With the drive wheels off the ground, put the transmission in first gear, turn the engine a known number of revolutions while counting the revolutions of the drive wheels (the higher the number of revs the more precise the measurement will be). Repeat for each gear. The result is a total ratio (including the final drive) for each gear. Then compare the relative ratio between gears to what it should be in the spec.

To use simple numbers, let's say the car is supposed to have a 1.0:1 4th gear, and a 1.1:1 5th gear. Assume the engine is turned 10 revs, and the drive wheels turn 2.5 times (if 4th gear is legal, this implies the final drive is a 4.00, but that's not important at this point). Now when 5th gear is checked, the engine is again turned 10 revs, the drive wheels had better turn 2.5x(1.1/1)=2.75 times. If not, one of the gears isn't legal.

[ScotMac]

Ok, not to continue any bad blood here but why all the animosity against mk3 VW's. I seem to remember that only a few years ago the car was classed in ITA and was not competitive.

Chris Shafsma (SP? sorry) in CHI. region has consistently kicked my butt on shorter courses in his MK2 (which is very much a B car). From my experience (having a track record at Road America) the mk3 chassis belongs on a longer course like what was witnessed at the ARRC this year. I can promise all that if the race was on a 2 mile course, the results would be much different.

In all honesty this is the first year that many people including myself have gone out and done 10/10 builds on this chassis. It is a natural progression for the sport and I feel it belongs in B at the same weight.
On to the tech and tear downs...

[/b]

Or we could just start calling ITB Spec-Golf, instead.

If this is the first year that people have done 10/10 builds, and the car is ALREADY dominating, what will happen when people REALLY get them tuned. It is really a shame that the defacto national championship for IT only really has one car competitive for ITB.

Edit: Well, that is not totally true. Vaughan's 924 and Douglas Spencer's 320i were SOMEWHAT close...but after that, the rest of the field was 3sec+ back!

[RacerBowie]

Or we could just start calling ITB Spec-Golf, instead.

If this is the first year that people have done 10/10 builds, and the car is ALREADY dominating, what will happen when people REALLY get them tuned. It is really a shame that the defacto national championship for IT only really has one car competitive for ITB.

Edit: Well, that is not totally true. Vaughan's 924 and Douglas Spencer's 320i were SOMEWHAT close...but after that, the rest of the field was 3sec+ back!
[/b]

The Mark III Golfs that were at the front are no-stone-unturned builds. The one I was driving has 5 years of development. Derek Luger has raced VWs seemingly since the earth cooled; his car was beautiful too. So was Rob's Mark II Golf that was RIGHT FREAKING THERE until he lost the draft due to traffic. Are you telling me that shouldn't be an ITB car? It has been for at least the better part of a decade. What about Trever's Accord that was also RIGHT THERE until it wrecked? Then there was the 924, in its first trip to Road Atlanta that stayed pretty close the whole race. I bet Vaughn can't wait to tweak that car a bit next year and come back to race for the win. The fast Volvos weren't there this year, that could have changed things too. Would anyone have bet against Sam Moore had he dragged that car out?

Where was all this outrage last year when Accords went 1-2-3?

Frankly, I'm getting a bit insulted by this stuff. I bet the ITAC is too. The car fits the class. It has strengths and weaknesses. You don't know that of which you speak.

[gran racing]

Are you telling me that shouldn't be an ITB car?[/b]

It absolutely is an ITB car, although I do continue to think it is a bit lite. I know Jake and Andy.

There are plenty of cars that I've run with and am on the look out for. Here's a few that are great ITB cars (I know there are others, but quickly off the top of my head):

Audi - mad torque monsters!
Accord
Golf II
Golf III
Rabbit
Alfa
Volvo
Prelude
924
BMW (which model was it that destroyed me on the straight?)
Civic - this could be one of the cars to have in ITB
Soon to be...Mini - this will be a big threat

[Fastfrogracing]

HI,

Congrats to the the winners. I believe the Golfs are the cars to beat in ITB now. I know the drivers with those cars drove well and the cars were well prepared. I don't think the cars were illegal. I too have a 10/10ths prepared car. I have spent 4 years racing it and feel that I am a pretty good driver. I had no chance of catching any golf on the straights. If you look at the specs I am compleatly outclassed. 2.0 vrs 1.8 advantage golf, 4 wheel disk vrs disk/drum advantage golf, modern F.I. vrs Bosch C.I.S. advantage Golf, 2350 vrs 2460 advantage Golf. Vaughan's car is outclassed also at 2600 lbs. He has spent years tweaking that car to get it as fast as it is now. I race with him alot and he is very dedicated, but I dont think he could keep up with the golfs. He may feel differently, i havn't asked him about it. Anyway I guess I have to write some letters about a weight reduction for my car or buy a golf. I had a great time and what a beautiful racetrack, I wish i could have been more competetive though. Again congrats to the winners.

Douglas Spencer
ITB BMW #66

[Knestis]

... I guess I have to write some letters about a weight reduction for my car ...[/b]

Absolutely do write the letter but please make sure the case is in terms of the system for classifying/specifying cars in IT classes. I'll beat this drum long and loud, as I would for any request for adjustment, that we can NOT make our cases - one way or the other - based on finishes.

If I had been driving that same Golf, it would have been several seconds slower - would that be fair evidence that an entire make/model is fine where it's currently listed? No. Equally, a podium sweep at one race in one year means exactly nothing.

K

EDIT - BTW, if I were building a sprint-optimized Golf III, I'd use rear drums instead of discs.

[Ron]

Not related to the ARRC, but, at the 13 hour my Mustang was only a couple of seconds slower than Pablo and I feel preety good about that. Plus, I'm a bit of a hack behind the wheel. Our car is not good at tracks with lots of stopping and then long straits for a bunch of reasons. Poor or limited suspension design, heavy weight to start with, gearing etc... With that said, it does work well at flowing tracks like Roebling Road. I would race anyone there and feel I have a chance. Different cars work well at different tracks. Thats what makes this fun. Road Atlanta is our home track and we go there all the time. If my 3 daughters didn't play soccer and the ARRC always fall on the last weekend we would run, not up front, but we would try.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Where was all this outrage last year when Accords went 1-2-3?

Frankly, I'm getting a bit insulted by this stuff. I bet the ITAC is too. The car fits the class. It has strengths and weaknesses.
[/b]

Welcome to the wonderful world of 'half the people think you are doing a good job and half thinking you are idiots.'

[Knestis]

...and because I have faith in the system:



K

EDIT - Special TT "race" chip and adjustable FPR. We're leaving a few on the table because we're not fully programmable.

[Conover]

EDIT - BTW, if I were building a sprint-optimized Golf III, I'd use rear drums instead of discs.
[/b]

You'd better write a letter, I'm going to tell you for the eleventy billionth time, the spec line says rear discs, thank god. . .

[Knestis]

Oops. Cameron's right. I keep forgetting.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

...and because I have faith in the system:



K

EDIT - Special TT "race" chip and adjustable FPR. We're leaving a few on the table because we're not fully programmable. [/b]

And lets take this to a stupid extreme - I know the numbers are massive estimates but:

110hp on a PAK is about 119 on a Jet. 119 on a Jet is about 140hp at the crank for a FWDer. 115 stock hp * the estimated 25% increase = 143hp.....................................guess what? It fits.

[shwah]

Well done Kirk. The torque is as I expected, and you can see the effect of the weak stock cam in that hp number.

I can tell you that I do use the prep level that you have demonstrated with that car as motivation for my own race car at times. It is just so damn clean, and well done.

[Knestis]

>> It is just so damn clean, and well done.

Thanks, man but I wish it were currently as clean as the web pics make it look. It's been "rode hard and put away wet" a lot this season - something over 55 hours of racing this year...

K

[RacerBowie]

>> It is just so damn clean, and well done.

Thanks, man but I wish it were currently as clean as the web pics make it look. It's been "rode hard and put away wet" a lot this season - something over 55 hours of racing this year...

K
[/b]

We had CJ there working his detailing magic on Pablo this weekend. Aside from the sandblasted paint on the front and that one ding from the 13 hour, he looks like a show car again! He will still need some offseason lovin', but considering the season he had it's not too shabby.

[Knestis]

<kirk is extra sad he couldn&#39;t be at the ARRC>



K