Moving ITB Rabbits to ITC?

[JimW337]

Another Rabbit driver asked this question to me the other weekend at the races. We were gridded at the back of the pack again amoung the C cars. All my races have been amoung the C cars but, I'm a rookie so that doesn't mean a whole lot. But I'm having the time of my like racing, anybody.

What got me thinking about this move making sence is the restructering of G Prod. With the G Rabbits getting moved to H and the ITC cars natural progression is into H. It kind of makes sence for the ITB Rabbit to be classed in ITC. Also, there don't seem to be a whole lot of C cars here in the SE so this would help the C run group too.

I was wonding if this makes any sense to any other Rabbit drivers or other C drivers. Or am I just way off base?

Jim W
Greensboro, NC
ITB Wraycer Wrabbit

[keycom]

Yes! And leave us at 2,080# of course.

Although with 1.8 liters of raw power, I don't think we'd be too welcome.

[BlueStreak]

We're tweener's when the ITC front runner's show up, but a well prepped and well driven ITB Rabbit can still be a fast car. As you well know Jim, my red car ain't no slouch. That said, at St.Louis earlier this year, I came in second of 5 or 6 in ITB and got LAPPED by the ITB Rabbit that won. The differences between mine and his, in order of importance:

1. He was a better driver.
2. I was on year old 205 Victoracer's, he was on new 225 Hoosiers.
3. He had a locked diff with a final drive that was better for getting off the corners than my stock gear.
4. He rebuilt his cage so he could get down to the new 2080 min weight, I was 70#'s over.
5. It was his home track, he knew it well. It was my first time there.

The fact that he lapped me (who finished 2nd) in a sprint race says that the car is competitive as classed in ITB.

I think with an increase in weight the car would be fair in ITC (say 2200ish), but I don't know that I would see it that way if I was currently campaigning a 1.6/1.7 ITC Rabbit.

[shwah]

I think they are competitve as classed in B, but I don't think very many people have put them together as full builds, at the new weight. You give up compression to the Golf, but not really anything else. Your intake manifold flows better, same brakes, same basic suspension layout, smaller frontal area. There are plusses and minuses. I would not like to see them move to C.

[rabbidmk1]

As an Ex-Rabbit driver, I agree with Chris. The ITB rabbits can and are competitive, it just depends on how much work you are willing to put into them. When I was running mine, the minimum weight was still 2180 so it has to be even better then when I remember.


Either wayI dont mind what class it is in, as I am in a mk3, however I do enjoy the on track company of the few who race the MK1 platform here in CenDiv.

[ScotMac]

Right, i have recently heard of multiple cases where the ITB rabbits were setting track records, or close to setting them. I would ADD weight to them in ITB!!

[JLawton]

<shudder>

- The ITB Rabbit is NOT a tweener....Not even close.
- We shouldn&#39;t dictate what class cars run by what they are doing in Prod <shudder, shudder> Sorry Jim!!!

The A1 GTis are still VERY competitive in ITB. There just all rotting away!!

[JimW337]

I never thought for a moment the Rabbit would ever get re-classed to C. Although, my limited experience is from the rear of the pack, my gut feeling is the Rabbit is a mid pack car.

I hear you talking about the Rabbit running up front, what kind of track? I image it would be a track with shorter straights and more twisty&#39;s, the kind we all love. I don&#39;t think you will ever see a Rabbit run up front at a track like VIR.

I&#39;ll keep pedaling faster and I&#39;ll keep having a blast. So, look out mid-packers I have you in my sights!

JimW

[iambhooper]

extra cars are always welcome in ITC

[Gary L]

extra cars are always welcome in ITC [/b]

...while cars disappearing from ITB is not.

[chewy8000]

I just finished my first school and the rabbit I bought was def. no slouch! My car was very fast and with the welded diff it was pulling hard out of turns. With new rotors and Hawk blues the braking performance was incredible. I def. believe a well sorted ITB rabbit is very competative, but I actually haven&#39;t raced yet. School and seasoned ITB veterans are two completely different experiences. I&#39;ll come back to this thread when the rookie stripes are on and I&#39;ve been whipped in MARRS.

[joeg]

For ITC, why not go with a classed car--the new Beetle?

[JimW337]

For ITC, why not go with a classed car--the new Beetle?
[/b]

If I ever hit the lottery I&#39;m having Conover build me 2 New Beetles (1 to rent) and we will be called DoodleBug Racing!

I&#39;ve always thought a car like the New Beetle would generate a lot of sponsorship interest. Give it the right paint scheme, pooka dots come to mind, and I think you could at least break even and have a ball at the track.

JimW

[jjjanos]

For ITC, why not go with a classed car--the new Beetle?
[/b]

Because, for what that new of a tub will cost plus turning it into a race car, you easily could do the same in a class where you would have someone to race.

[Grumpa]

I ran my 1.6 ITC Rabbit at Gateway in October and lapped between 1:18.3 and low 19, which was about a 1.5 sec faster than the previous year. I will pull the Autopower 6 point boltin and weld in a stiff 8 point cage this winter, replace the open diff with a spool, get a set of 225/45 R6&#39;s, replace the Diamond Steelies with alloys, strip the soundproofing/brackets/heater/paint/etc, try to get a set of race Bilsteins and put the driver on a diet in an attempt to get said combo down to 2000# from its current 2150#. That said, I don&#39;t see any way my built Rabbit could compete with a built 1.8 Rabbit at 2200#. Correct me fellow Dubbers if I&#39;m wrong, but we are talking about the 82-83 1.8 German GTI&#39;s that were a clean sheet of paper from day 1 - correct? No way will my Pennsylvania Flexi-Flyer be able to hunt with that dog. Despite having the aerodynamics of a brick, the GTI is still able to run at the pointy end of the pack at MidOhio and tracks like it from what I have seen. I have to agree with Mr. Lawson - that racecar ain&#39;t no tweener.

[shwah]

Well no, we are talking about the 83-84, built in PA 1.8 liter GTI. But yeah on everything else.

Sounds like you have a pretty nice car coming together.

I have a buddy that just bought the ex Albin/Mathis ITB (I think it was ITA at that time) Rabbit GTI. I am trying to talk him out of dropping a 16v into it, and keep the mods IT legal, just in case he wants to come out and play sometime.

[Grumpa]

Shwah,
Thanks for the clarification on the subject, but the 83-84 GTI, chassis wise, is still light years ahead of my &#39;79 in regards to torsional stiffness, yes/no? That GTI was pretty much THE Alpha Pocket Rocket as I recall.

Different plane to weigh in on - Is the Golf a better ITB car compared to the ITB GTI. I have the opportunity to acquire a caged/stripped ITB Golf in exchange for some labor on my part and I know little about the Golfs except they seem to be a popular weapon of choice in B. I have no plans to abandon C at this time, but I don&#39;t know how long the class will be around do to the cars getting geriatric. Production really doesn&#39;t interest me due to the expense of it, so that isn&#39;t an option for my Rabbit. If I acquire the Golf, it will be parked in my garage for at least a year whilst I enthusiastically flog the Bunny, but having a next step in mind is a good plan to have, so I&#39;m told.

[Knestis]

Not backed up by any substantial data but I tend to think that the three generations of ITB Golf/Rabbit pretty much offset one-another&#39;s advantages

MkI - Lighter weight, susceptible to hub/bearing issues?

MkII - Stiffer, broader footprint, somewhat heavier?

MkIII - Torque is great, heavier than MkII with same basic platform?

K

[shwah]

I agree with Kirk. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, which come to light depending on the style of track you are running.

I got my butt handed to me at one outing to Road America this year by an 8/10ths Golf 3, because it plays to his strengths - long straights - and because the driver knows and drives that track very well (and I had an oily clutch). However that same car has yet to beat me at Blackhawk Farms, which is heavier on brakes and handling. We can&#39;t wait to get back together next year and try to negate the other guys advantage at his &#39;optimum&#39; track.

These are all good B cars, so then you start to consider parts availability and support. The Rabbit looses this argument flat out. The Golf is starting to look more risky here, although the yards I go to are still well stocked with them. The Golf 3 looks pretty nice in this regard.

Purely on paper, the Golf 3 with 10% more displacement, cross flow head, and 3/4" more front brake looks like the one to beat carrying only 3% more weight than the Golf, but other aspects such as gearing, years of development and quantity prepped and raced well have kept them from running away from the other VWs - to this point. Time will tell if that remains the case.

[Bill Miller]

I think they are competitve as classed in B, but I don&#39;t think very many people have put them together as full builds, at the new weight. You give up compression to the Golf, but not really anything else. Your intake manifold flows better, same brakes, same basic suspension layout, smaller frontal area. There are plusses and minuses. I would not like to see them move to C.
[/b]

Not true Chris, the A2 manifold flows better than the A1 manifold, not to mention that the A2 runs a larger throttle body. And the A2 has rear discs. That&#39;s not necessarily an advantage, but the cars don&#39;t have the same brakes.

IIRC, ITC process weight for a Rabbit GTI is 2250#. At that weight, it would make a good ITC car.