Wheels, wheels, and more wheels

[ScotMac]

Maybe, but you clearly have to admit that changing ITB to 7" rims could result in performance increases, due to some folks running 225s on a more optimal rim, correct?
[/b]

We knew all along that 7" was more optimal and thus a performance increase: ~5 deg more optimal from my calculations. The only question was/is how much of a performance increase, which we still don't know. As i have said from the beginning it is a tradeoff: the greater supply of suitable wheels at more reasonable prices for B and C drivers vs. the impact from the improved sidewall angle.

All we have determined is that both 6" and 7" are further from optimal than we thought, the relative distance to each other hasn't changed. The "sidewall performance curve" is likely to be close to linear in the beginning, and more and more exponential as we get further from optimal. So, the question is, are we still in the "close to linear" area or the "exponential" area?

[lateapex911]

Well, that's just it....it's not linear, and it's not equal among all cars on all tracks, and...it varies from tire manufacturer to tire manufacturer......any thought that such a change will have negligible effects is erroneous thinking.

In a category based on stability, such a change needs to have a better cost vs benefit ratio.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We knew all along that 7" was more optimal and thus a performance increase: ~5 deg more optimal from my calculations. The only question was/is how much of a performance increase, which we still don't know. As i have said from the beginning it is a tradeoff: the greater supply of suitable wheels at more reasonable prices for B and C drivers vs. the impact from the improved sidewall angle.

All we have determined is that both 6" and 7" are further from optimal than we thought, the relative distance to each other hasn't changed. The "sidewall performance curve" is likely to be close to linear in the beginning, and more and more exponential as we get further from optimal. So, the question is, are we still in the "close to linear" area or the "exponential" area? [/b]

Scott,

Here is the point: There IS a real and perceived advantage to a 7" allowance over a 6". Therefore the NEED, both actual and perceived, will be instantly created by a change. It then costs EVERYONE money.

I will say this: I don't think the need is there to make a change - YET. When all available wheels dry up, then a move is warranted. Under 10# wheels are $300+ each for everyone, 7" or 6". Stock up when you can on the most affordable option.

[ScotMac]

Scott,

Here is the point: There IS a real and perceived advantage to a 7" allowance over a 6". Therefore the NEED, both actual and perceived, will be instantly created by a change. It then costs EVERYONE money.

I will say this: I don't think the need is there to make a change - YET. When all available wheels dry up, then a move is warranted. Under 10# wheels are $300+ each for everyone, 7" or 6". Stock up when you can on the most affordable option.
[/b]

No, under 10lb wheels for $300 are NON-EXISTENT in 6". They are $400+.

This rule (6") is an historical aberration that is only good for protecting the current racers stock of wheels, and hurts all new purchases and new racers. It will have to be changed eventually, and that hit (existing racer's stock of rims) will be same WHENEVER it is changed. So, the sooner the change, the sooner the new purchases can take advantage of the greater supply and cheaper wheels.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So, the sooner the change, the sooner the new purchases can take advantage of the greater supply and cheaper wheels. [/b]

...and the sooner the whole class has to buy new 7" wheels to remain competitive - in reality or perception.

How many people do you see on grid with 9# wheels - regardless of class and availability? It's less than 5% around here.

[ScotMac]

...and the sooner the whole class has to buy new 7" wheels to remain competitive - in reality or perception.
[/b]

Whether sooner or later, that will happen. It is constant. However, the sooner the rule is changed, the sooner people will be able to take advantage of the cheaper and more abundant supply. That amount of people will be greater if the rule is changed sooner...it is time dependent, not constant.

How many people do you see on grid with 9# wheels - regardless of class and availability? It's less than 5% around here.
[/b]

You just made up that number! I'll look around and let you know. But, in general, i believe their are MANY in the 10-13lb range. However, 6" wheels are almost non-existent in that range *also*, not just the 8-10lb range (take a look back at my study in the "Oct fasttrack" thread). 10-13lb are comparably abundant in 7".

[Andy Bettencourt]

I dropped the money for 8.8# 15X7 SSR's two years ago - so I take notice what people are running.

I think a rule should go into effect when it shifts from 'benefitting a few' to 'benefitting many'. I just don't buy it's teh right thing - now. It will be.

[Dave Ebersole]

No, under 10lb wheels for $300 are NON-EXISTENT in 6". They are $400+.

This rule (6") is an historical aberration that is only good for protecting the current racers stock of wheels, and hurts all new purchases and new racers. It will have to be changed eventually, and that hit (existing racer's stock of rims) will be same WHENEVER it is changed. So, the sooner the change, the sooner the new purchases can take advantage of the greater supply and cheaper wheels.
[/b]

I've NEVER had a problem purchasing 6X13 Panasports for my car and none of the guys I race with have ever complained about having trouble purchasing wheels, the Volvo guys, the other BMW guys, the VW guys, so I don't see how the 6" rule hurts US a bit.

[ScotMac]

I've NEVER had a problem purchasing 6X13 Panasports for my car and none of the guys I race with have ever complained about having trouble purchasing wheels, the Volvo guys, the other BMW guys, the VW guys, so I don't see how the 6" rule hurts US a bit.
[/b]

Yes, panasports and spinwerkes are almost the only supply of suitable 6" wheels below $400+ custom kodiaks. And panasports is a partial supply, since they don't support 5 lug rims in their custom stuff. And spinwerkes are 11+lbs. One and a half suppliers is an almost non-existent supply.

[Knestis]

...And panasports is a partial supply, since they don't support 5 lug rims in their custom stuff. And spinwerkes are 11+lbs. One and a half suppliers is an almost non-existent supply.
[/b]

...AND we are back to the problem being a problem for particular bolt patterns, rather than for "everyone who has to run 6" wheels." PhilsTireService.com just found me 3 more Kosei K1TS wheels (about 10.5#) for about $120 each. I'll now have 18.

And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a steel-bodied car with essentially stock suspension?

K

[shwah]

I have raced against ONE competitor in ITB running less than 10# wheels. The vast majority are in the 14-18 range.

I typically see one or two cars MAX in a given class with wheels like this. Often the number is zero. It is nowhere near standard practice at the CenDiv and MidDiv races I have been to.

[gran racing]

Looks like you need to use their 14" rims at 9.3 lbs Kirk.

[ScotMac]

...AND we are back to the problem being a problem for particular bolt patterns, rather than for "everyone who has to run 6" wheels." PhilsTireService.com just found me 3 more Kosei K1TS wheels (about 10.5#) for about $120 each. I'll now have 18.
[/b]

No, the supply issue is for everyone...it is just a bit more pronounced for 5 bolt or 5x100 wheels. Again, look back at my supply study in the "Oct FT" thread.

Also, my supply study said acceptable wheels were "< 15lbs", even though 15lb wheels are ALMOST DOUBLE the weight of the lightest available.

In terms of spinwerkes, i simply pointed out that they were not the ultra-lw (<10lbs) wheels that Andy was talking about.

Lastly, my supply study didn&#39;t have Kosei in it, because of very limited US presence (japanese company that appears to be just breaking into us market). In fact, i didn&#39;t even find a US based web site (they have an UK one, but doesn&#39;t have all the wheels). The only place i have found that carries them is the TireRack (believe they have an exclusive), and Phil&#39;s (philstireservice.com) is just getting them from TireRack. They quote a 14x6, 38mm offset, 9.3lbs and only a 4x100 bolt pattern at $119. That is a very good deal, and exactly the type of deal of we would have more than one of, w/ more than one bolt pattern, in the 7" width.

[Quickshoe]

My rules (VARA FProd) limit my wheel width to 6", I can run either 14&#39;s or 15&#39;s. With a minimum aspect ratio tire of 50%. Given the trend in tire choices I am choosing to go with 15&#39;s.

All of you B and C guys who will have extra 6" wheels, drop me a note with what you have.

4 x 130 or 4 x 100 bolt pattern 38mm offset MINIMUM.

I am looking for something 11.0# or less.

THANKS,

quickshoe(at)earthlink(dot)net

BTW--15 x 6 Panasports are 15#, the stock steel wheels on this car are only 15.5#! I love the look of the panasports (especially on a Vintage car) but the 15" wheels, especially in the larger bolt patterns are substantially heavier than the 13&#39;s on a FF.

[Z3_GoCar]

....And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a steel-bodied car with essentially stock suspension?

K
[/b]

Kirk,

Maybe you don&#39;t get the irony that you&#39;re arguing the point with someone who&#39;s not got a steel bodied car

What&#39;s next, how about carbon fiber

My wheels are the stock 16x7&#39;s that weigh 16.5 lbs ea. I got a used set off of flea-bay for $250. Cheapest item on the car actually, and I think they might still be straight even after my shunt a month ago.

James

[ScotMac]

Steel bodied cars? Carbon bodied cars? Titanium bodied cars? It doesn&#39;t matter!!!

What the body is made of has very little impact on whether a lightweight wheel is relevant to your performance. It is like asking whether a lightened flywheel will help your performance if your car is made of steel!!!

Or whether aluminum hubs and shocks will help your performance, even on a "steel bodied car".

[gran racing]

In fact, i didn&#39;t even find a US based web site (they have an UK one, but doesn&#39;t have all the wheels). The only place i have found that carries them is the TireRack (believe they have an exclusive), and Phil&#39;s (philstireservice.com) is just getting them from TireRack. [/b]

Scot,
One of the great things about these wheels are that people can buy them in many, many locations. I went down to town fair tire, and yup, they can get them. Pep Boys? Yup. The list goes on.

[ScotMac]

Scot,
One of the great things about these wheels are that people can buy them in many, many locations. I went down to town fair tire, and yup, they can get them. Pep Boys? Yup. The list goes on.
[/b]

Dave, really? Haven&#39;t seen that. Pep Boys doesn&#39;t list them on their website. Guess it could be "in-store" only. CustomWheelsDirect, who have a huge list of manufacturers, don&#39;t list them.

Yahoo shopping lists them at TireRack, GoMiata (no 6"), and Carr Industries (no 6"). AllowWheels.com, along w/ a bunch of other UK vendors lists them, but not the k1-ts nor 14x6".

ProjectRoad.com lists them from.....TireRack again.

MSN Shopping lists them from....ONLY TireRack again.

Anyway, we probably shouldn&#39;t get hung up on the vendors of Kosei wheels. They are a very nice wheel, at a nice light weight, and TireRack is a good supplier. The point is we have found one manufacturer of lightweight racing wheels at an affordable price in the 14x6", and only in 4x100 bolt pattern. I bet if we go through all the cars in ITB and ITC, we will find many other (non 4x100) wheel bolt patterns (not just 5x100).

However, if we expand our search to 15x7" wheels, we have many inexpensive suppliers. If we constrain ouselves to just 13.5lbs or less, we have the following from just one website:

CustomWheelsDirect.com, 15x7: 253 wheels returned, w/ the following 13.5lbs or less:
5Zigen, FN01R: Available 13.5lbs
Enkei, RPF1: Available 9.9lbs
Motegi, LC5: check avail 12.5lb
Motegi, Trak Lite 1: Available 10.5lbs
Motegi, Trak Lite 2: Available 10lbs
TeamDyn, ProRace 1 : Available 13.2lbs
TeamDyn, ProRace 2 : Available 13.2lbs

Because of that much greater supply in 15x7, we are much more likely to find good deals *and* all the necessary bolt patterns.

[shwah]

Note that the only sub 10# wheel listed is not exactly a budget choice.

[Knestis]

Steel bodied cars? Carbon bodied cars? Titanium bodied cars? It doesn&#39;t matter!!!

What the body is made of has very little impact on whether a lightweight wheel is relevant to your performance. It is like asking whether a lightened flywheel will help your performance if your car is made of steel!!!

Or whether aluminum hubs and shocks will help your performance, even on a "steel bodied car".
[/b]

...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Yes - when i went from 19# stock wheels to 9# Koseis, I saved 40 pounds. Yes - it&#39;s rotational inertia in addition to simple mass. But it&#39;s still less than 2% of the race weight of my car and we didn&#39;t get some great hunk faster by making the change.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. You clearly believe strongly that everyone should be entitled to extremely affordable, sub-10 pound racing wheels, as though that&#39;s the factor that&#39;s keeping everyone from competing on a level playing field.

It isn&#39;t.

They aren&#39;t.

Please don&#39;t let the fact that I&#39;m not arguing this anymore suggest to you that "you&#39;ve won." You picked your ride and inherit all of its good and bad points. You get a lower polar moment of inertia. Yay! Wheel supply for your bolt pattern sucks. Bummer! But you can&#39;t fairly generalize your problem to the entire category, even if you wrap it up in terms of how wonderful it will be for everyone.

Ciao

K