Wheels, wheels, and more wheels

[Andy Bettencourt]

We knew all along that 7" was more optimal and thus a performance increase: ~5 deg more optimal from my calculations. The only question was/is how much of a performance increase, which we still don't know. As i have said from the beginning it is a tradeoff: the greater supply of suitable wheels at more reasonable prices for B and C drivers vs. the impact from the improved sidewall angle.

All we have determined is that both 6" and 7" are further from optimal than we thought, the relative distance to each other hasn't changed. The "sidewall performance curve" is likely to be close to linear in the beginning, and more and more exponential as we get further from optimal. So, the question is, are we still in the "close to linear" area or the "exponential" area? [/b]

Scott,

Here is the point: There IS a real and perceived advantage to a 7" allowance over a 6". Therefore the NEED, both actual and perceived, will be instantly created by a change. It then costs EVERYONE money.

I will say this: I don't think the need is there to make a change - YET. When all available wheels dry up, then a move is warranted. Under 10# wheels are $300+ each for everyone, 7" or 6". Stock up when you can on the most affordable option.

[ScotMac]

...AND we are back to the problem being a problem for particular bolt patterns, rather than for "everyone who has to run 6" wheels." PhilsTireService.com just found me 3 more Kosei K1TS wheels (about 10.5#) for about $120 each. I'll now have 18.
[/b]

No, the supply issue is for everyone...it is just a bit more pronounced for 5 bolt or 5x100 wheels. Again, look back at my supply study in the "Oct FT" thread.

Also, my supply study said acceptable wheels were "< 15lbs", even though 15lb wheels are ALMOST DOUBLE the weight of the lightest available.

In terms of spinwerkes, i simply pointed out that they were not the ultra-lw (<10lbs) wheels that Andy was talking about.

Lastly, my supply study didn&#39;t have Kosei in it, because of very limited US presence (japanese company that appears to be just breaking into us market). In fact, i didn&#39;t even find a US based web site (they have an UK one, but doesn&#39;t have all the wheels). The only place i have found that carries them is the TireRack (believe they have an exclusive), and Phil&#39;s (philstireservice.com) is just getting them from TireRack. They quote a 14x6, 38mm offset, 9.3lbs and only a 4x100 bolt pattern at $119. That is a very good deal, and exactly the type of deal of we would have more than one of, w/ more than one bolt pattern, in the 7" width.

[shwah]

I don&#39;t have any experience on my car with different width rims. However I am stuffing 225s onto 13x6" wheels, but mainly because the 225/45-13 gives me (I think) the OD that I want. To be honest, it is quite possible that a 7" wheel would perform better, or course it ain&#39;t easy finding either size in a 13.

As much as anything, I am doing this to try something different and learn something that makes the car faster...or not. Either way valuable info.

[lateapex911]

Well, that&#39;s just it....it&#39;s not linear, and it&#39;s not equal among all cars on all tracks, and...it varies from tire manufacturer to tire manufacturer......any thought that such a change will have negligible effects is erroneous thinking.

In a category based on stability, such a change needs to have a better cost vs benefit ratio.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I dropped the money for 8.8# 15X7 SSR&#39;s two years ago - so I take notice what people are running.

I think a rule should go into effect when it shifts from &#39;benefitting a few&#39; to &#39;benefitting many&#39;. I just don&#39;t buy it&#39;s teh right thing - now. It will be.

[shwah]

I have raced against ONE competitor in ITB running less than 10# wheels. The vast majority are in the 14-18 range.

I typically see one or two cars MAX in a given class with wheels like this. Often the number is zero. It is nowhere near standard practice at the CenDiv and MidDiv races I have been to.

[gran racing]

Looks like you need to use their 14" rims at 9.3 lbs Kirk.

[Quickshoe]

My rules (VARA FProd) limit my wheel width to 6", I can run either 14&#39;s or 15&#39;s. With a minimum aspect ratio tire of 50%. Given the trend in tire choices I am choosing to go with 15&#39;s.

All of you B and C guys who will have extra 6" wheels, drop me a note with what you have.

4 x 130 or 4 x 100 bolt pattern 38mm offset MINIMUM.

I am looking for something 11.0# or less.

THANKS,

quickshoe(at)earthlink(dot)net

BTW--15 x 6 Panasports are 15#, the stock steel wheels on this car are only 15.5#! I love the look of the panasports (especially on a Vintage car) but the 15" wheels, especially in the larger bolt patterns are substantially heavier than the 13&#39;s on a FF.

[ScotMac]

Steel bodied cars? Carbon bodied cars? Titanium bodied cars? It doesn&#39;t matter!!!

What the body is made of has very little impact on whether a lightweight wheel is relevant to your performance. It is like asking whether a lightened flywheel will help your performance if your car is made of steel!!!

Or whether aluminum hubs and shocks will help your performance, even on a "steel bodied car".

[Knestis]

Steel bodied cars? Carbon bodied cars? Titanium bodied cars? It doesn&#39;t matter!!!

What the body is made of has very little impact on whether a lightweight wheel is relevant to your performance. It is like asking whether a lightened flywheel will help your performance if your car is made of steel!!!

Or whether aluminum hubs and shocks will help your performance, even on a "steel bodied car".
[/b]

...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Yes - when i went from 19# stock wheels to 9# Koseis, I saved 40 pounds. Yes - it&#39;s rotational inertia in addition to simple mass. But it&#39;s still less than 2% of the race weight of my car and we didn&#39;t get some great hunk faster by making the change.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. You clearly believe strongly that everyone should be entitled to extremely affordable, sub-10 pound racing wheels, as though that&#39;s the factor that&#39;s keeping everyone from competing on a level playing field.

It isn&#39;t.

They aren&#39;t.

Please don&#39;t let the fact that I&#39;m not arguing this anymore suggest to you that "you&#39;ve won." You picked your ride and inherit all of its good and bad points. You get a lower polar moment of inertia. Yay! Wheel supply for your bolt pattern sucks. Bummer! But you can&#39;t fairly generalize your problem to the entire category, even if you wrap it up in terms of how wonderful it will be for everyone.

Ciao

K

[lateapex911]

...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. Please don&#39;t let the fact that I&#39;m not arguing this anymore suggest to you that "you&#39;ve won." [/b]

Ditto here...

You picked your <strike>ride</strike> class and inherit all of its good and bad points. You get a <strike>lower polar moment of inertia </strike>choice of cheap cars. Yay! Wheel supply for your chosen car&#39;s bolt pattern sucks. Bummer! [/b]

A couple little edits...

In the end, I guess it&#39;s an agree to disagree issue...

[ScotMac]

...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Yes - when i went from 19# stock wheels to 9# Koseis, I saved 40 pounds. Yes - it&#39;s rotational inertia in addition to simple mass. But it&#39;s still less than 2% of the race weight of my car and we didn&#39;t get some great hunk faster by making the change.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. You clearly believe strongly that everyone should be entitled to extremely affordable, sub-10 pound racing wheels, as though that&#39;s the factor that&#39;s keeping everyone from competing on a level playing field.

[/b]

I repeat the arguments Kirk because they are valid points that you have failed to counter.

It is humorous to me that 5deg difference in sidewall angle is classified as a large performance issue, whereas 10lbs per corner less rotating weight and unsprung weight is no change in performance. Good one.

(Note, the 10lbs is Kirk&#39;s numbers)

Yes, the low-budget racer being able to get a much larger supply of lightweight racing wheels, to compete w/ the $400+ big budget 8lb racing wheels is a monetary help/equalizer.

Yes, we have found one inexpensive lightweight wheel in 4x100 bolt pattern. That is not enough supply, even for 4x100, let alone the lack of supply for the rest of the bolt patterns.

[Gary L]

It is humorous to me that 5deg difference in sidewall angle is classified as a large performance issue, whereas 10lbs per corner less rotating weight and unsprung weight is no change in performance. Good one.[/b]

Scot, you win the "Twist & Shout" award this week. No one said there was a "large perfomance issue" when comparing 6" vs 7" wheels. And no one said there was "...no change in performance" when going to lighter wheels. They are both incremental performance enhancements; neither of them is going to make your Fiero 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster.

Incidentally, wheels may be the least of your rolling issues anyway... have you talked to Alan Hamilton (raced an ITA Fiero in SFR until a year or two back) about front hubs? The last I knew, he had not found an IT legal replacement hub & bearing assembly that would last more than a few laps... literally! These were unique to the &#39;88 Fiero, they fit nothing else in the world. The OEM pieces (no longer available from GM) do okay, but they do eventually fail under race conditions. The situation may have changed, but a year or two ago, the only replacement hubs available (from eBearing, I think?) were not worth the time it took to install them, never mind the purchase price, at least from a racing standpoint.

[ScotMac]

Scot, you win the "Twist & Shout" award this week. No one said there was a "large perfomance issue" when comparing 6" vs 7" wheels. And no one said there was "...no change in performance" when going to lighter wheels. They are both incremental performance enhancements; neither of them is going to make your Fiero 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster.

[/b]

It was said that the sidewall issue going from 6" to 7" inch was significant enough to cause possible reclassing issues, but going to 10lb less weight wheels was not a "great hunk faster". ie, the sidewall performance issue was constantly puffed up, and now the weight issue is being minimized. What will be done to protect that stash of 6" wheels?

[gran racing]

In fact, i didn&#39;t even find a US based web site (they have an UK one, but doesn&#39;t have all the wheels). The only place i have found that carries them is the TireRack (believe they have an exclusive), and Phil&#39;s (philstireservice.com) is just getting them from TireRack. [/b]

Scot,
One of the great things about these wheels are that people can buy them in many, many locations. I went down to town fair tire, and yup, they can get them. Pep Boys? Yup. The list goes on.

[ScotMac]

Scot,
One of the great things about these wheels are that people can buy them in many, many locations. I went down to town fair tire, and yup, they can get them. Pep Boys? Yup. The list goes on.
[/b]

Dave, really? Haven&#39;t seen that. Pep Boys doesn&#39;t list them on their website. Guess it could be "in-store" only. CustomWheelsDirect, who have a huge list of manufacturers, don&#39;t list them.

Yahoo shopping lists them at TireRack, GoMiata (no 6"), and Carr Industries (no 6"). AllowWheels.com, along w/ a bunch of other UK vendors lists them, but not the k1-ts nor 14x6".

ProjectRoad.com lists them from.....TireRack again.

MSN Shopping lists them from....ONLY TireRack again.

Anyway, we probably shouldn&#39;t get hung up on the vendors of Kosei wheels. They are a very nice wheel, at a nice light weight, and TireRack is a good supplier. The point is we have found one manufacturer of lightweight racing wheels at an affordable price in the 14x6", and only in 4x100 bolt pattern. I bet if we go through all the cars in ITB and ITC, we will find many other (non 4x100) wheel bolt patterns (not just 5x100).

However, if we expand our search to 15x7" wheels, we have many inexpensive suppliers. If we constrain ouselves to just 13.5lbs or less, we have the following from just one website:

CustomWheelsDirect.com, 15x7: 253 wheels returned, w/ the following 13.5lbs or less:
5Zigen, FN01R: Available 13.5lbs
Enkei, RPF1: Available 9.9lbs
Motegi, LC5: check avail 12.5lb
Motegi, Trak Lite 1: Available 10.5lbs
Motegi, Trak Lite 2: Available 10lbs
TeamDyn, ProRace 1 : Available 13.2lbs
TeamDyn, ProRace 2 : Available 13.2lbs

Because of that much greater supply in 15x7, we are much more likely to find good deals *and* all the necessary bolt patterns.

[shwah]

Note that the only sub 10# wheel listed is not exactly a budget choice.

[ScotMac]

Note that the only sub 10# wheel listed is not exactly a budget choice.
[/b]

No, but at $230, the Enkei RPF1&#39;s are not too bad either, especially when compared to the $400+ Kodiaks and Custom Panasports.

In Fact, i believe the Spinwerkes are also a pretty good deal ($231), but those Enkei RPF1&#39;s are similarly priced and over 2lbs less per wheel!!

[vr6guy]

give the people that choose to run 15x7&#39;s a weight penalty...... ill gladly take weight

[ScotMac]

Alan must have *REALLY* had problems w/ the hubs. You are the 3rd (or 4th) person that has warned me about them, because of Alan&#39;s complaints.

I have yet to have a problem w/ them (where is some wood!!!). My car has been raced a 12 hour enduro, and a 4 hour enduro, and a little over one full season.

I have also found the hubs at Napa, autopartswarehouse, fierostore, and (surpisingly) gm parts direct. The autopartswarehouse one is made by "NTP" and fierostore says theirs is made by "auto parts international" (whoever that is). So, if i do have to replace the front hubs, i *hope* one of those will work for me.