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Thread: SFI Foundation

  1. #1
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    Sep 2007
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    I am relatively new to club racing I am in the process of converting my 70 camaro over to road racing from previous endeavors in drag racing. One problem I have with all of the sanctioning bodies’ rules and regs is the use of spec safety equipment that has been analyzed and approved by associations that have a direct relation in funding and support to the manufacturers whose products they are testing and approving for safety use. Common sense would tell you that this is very imprudent. In the passenger car sector of automotive development and safety regulations this would never fly. The manufacturers do pay for the testing but the testing is analyzed and approved by an independent organization. I believe this also leaves the drivers of race cars that participate in races supported by these sanctioning bodies out to dry.

    Just as a example i will use the latest sfi 38:1 specification for head and neck restraint devices. On other forums there have been serveral debates about this very subject. Mostly these debates consist of which device is better than the other etc. but the fact is any is better than none. Many people can’t afford to purchase a HANS device yet if you don’t have one and have another product you are required to run with no device. Also the HANS device will only work in frontal impacts which means you have to have a side head restraint system on your seat. Something that is NOT required by the rules and the average racer does not have. Side or angular impacts are much more likely in any racing accident scenario because human instinct will always tell us to try and avoid running straight into something. It’s just the way it is if u head straight for a wall you are going to try recover the car to get it heading away from the wall. So this leaves a huge hole for a safety specification that is supposed to save us.

    No safety system will work as designed if the rest of the combination of equipment it was tested with is absent. So how does this come back to sfi? its not their fault that we don’t have the money to buy a seat or the proper belts right? Well most of us see safety as a must and the most important part of our cars. If the driver does not feel safe with their safety equipment they most likely won’t race it. If there is a better alternative to the HANS that is more cost effective for amateur racer then why shouldn’t we be able to use it?

    The fact is if you look at all of the professional sanctioning bodies that solely use the HANS device. They do in fact REQUIRE proper lateral support of the head through seats or in formula 1 the cocoon the driver is contained in. And another reason formula 1 can fully support it is they use very high dollar version of the HANS that has been modified specifically for use in formula 1. If WRC drivers were ALLOWED to wear an ISAAC system most of them probably would. I think it would be much more comfortable in that sort of racing for many reasons.

    These specifications are to protect the drivers, teammates, and spectators depending on the part we are talking about. But the fact is it must be independent of the individual manufactures. One manufacturer should not be able to tailor the rules to fit their own product. This limits the ability to improve that given product and make it even safer. This saves manufacturers money in the short term because they don’t have to keep developing a better product. But it can lead to many more problems down the road for one the speeds of racing are constantly increasing as well as the development of everything else in a race car. In short i feel that SFI foundation and FIA is at this point very short sighted in its determination of rules. No one product should be a benchmark. The benchmark should be in the data that is required to save the lives in all instances of an accident or breakage that the spec number is supposed to represent.

    I posted this here to find out what the general consensus is on this subject. Without us (the racers) these foundations, sanctioning bodies, have NOTHING, but a lot of money tied up. So we should be the ones who decide who tells us how to be safe not the manufacturers that just want our money. I know it sounds bad putting it that way but its the truth greed is a powerful thing and it knows no boundaries. I believe their are enough of us that feel this same way especially with the recent drive to be safer in a already unsafe sport. I think with enough us we could start a movement to really change the way these rules are derived which will inherently save many fellow racers lives for generations to come. Thank you for your comments!

  2. #2
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    Sep 2002
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    Honest, I have no idea who this guy is.

    opcorn:
    Gregg Baker, P.E.
    Isaac, LLC
    http://www.isaacdirect.com

  3. #3
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    Sep 2007
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    Honest he doesnt. :-) i dont have any affiliation with any of the companies listed above or any of their competitors im just a racer who has some strong concerns about the way safety gear is certified. Its our lively hoods that these are supposed to protect and i feel we should ultimately be able to police things of this sort...

  4. #4
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    Mar 2001
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    Connecticut
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    drftn, if you're looking for debate, you will be hard-pressed to find it here on that subject. At best, you'll get a hearty "hear him, hear him!" from us.

    Welcome aboard, and tell us your real name...

    GA

  5. #5
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    Sep 2007
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    Haha well thats good to know, i dont want this to be a debate so much as im curious how many feel the same way? There is power in numbers and if enough people feel the same way maybe we can get some change for the better. I love racing i inherited the love from my father and i hope to pass it on to my future children. But of all the things i love about racing a lot of it is the people you meet and the good times you share. Those can often be overshadowed by the unsafe nature that plagues any activity where you push the limits of yourself, your equipment, and of course physics. But hey thats racing it comes hand in hand with the territory. But either way we can still embrace change and try to make it better. In the same way we try to go faster.

    My name is T.J. Tobler for the curious and i live in the Kansas City Area. I will be coming to the runoffs to hopefully meet some people in person and try to soak in as much as possible.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    Black Rock, Ct
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    9,594

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    T.J., if you haven't found this:

    http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/

    then you should take a read. It's pretty much brand new, and in the formation stages. Sanctioning bodies would be wise to utilize such a medium, and use oit to set thresholds of safety. This method seems much more transparent and above board than the racketeering that is the SFI.............(in my humble opinion....)
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Silicon Valley, CA
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    I don't entirely get it.

    I don't disagree that there are some shifty dealings with SFI and that they've basically A) designed a standard that doesn't make sense and that favors 1 product, and managed enough industry mindshare to hoodwick well-meaning sanctioning bodies into drinking their kool-aid.

    It's not fair to other H&N restraint vendors, and it's not fair to the members of these driving clubs.

    BUT -- while working to change the system, I can't accept "I can't afford a HANS." Any racer can afford a HANS, he just has to give up something else. A one-time $800 purchase is nothing compared to the seasonal budgets we all work on ... and it can be amortized over many seasons.

    Does it suck to be forced into one answer? Of course. But why would anyone go without?
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  8. #8
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    Sep 2007
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    Thanks for the link! I have not seen that before it is definately a start in the right direction from what i can tell. Still far from an independent testing organization but i wholeheartedly agree it is a great tool for racers and sanctioning bodies alike to utilize! Very interesting glad you posted that!

    Also that isnt a problem i for one have but it is a problem and some people have felt that other device's would protect themselves better in their particular vehicle and have already bought one of the other manufacturers products, and either way if the person is already hurting to buy a HANS they will have to go buy another seat as well to help protect themselves against a lateral crash which could put the total cost of it much higher. As i said earlier anything is better than none and i agree you gotta follow the rules so if your ganna race your really should just get a hans and protect yourself i was just trying to add to the point that one option is never as good as many because one thing cant cover such a wide area of applications.


    T.J.

  9. #9
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    Mar 2002
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    Black Rock, Ct
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    I...... Many people can't afford to purchase a HANS device yet if you don't have one and have another product you are required to run with no device. ...................
    [/b]
    That's not the case in SCCA. I last wore my Isaac device a number of times in Mid Ohio, with the Cinncinatti Region, and before that at NHIS with NER, and before that in Atlanta with that region, and nobody has said a word to me about it.

    There was a propsed rule on the books that would have been HANS or nothing, but the BoD voted against it.

    to them!
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6

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    Well thats great to hear seems the open rule system works quite well here in SCCA as i said i am new to this group and its great to hear that the checks and balances work well sadly nhra is quite as open to sportsmen level rule input... and that is what i am used too. thanks for the correction

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