October Fastrack

[spnkzss]

Again, back to the, "Why limit ITB and ITC to 6" wide wheels?"

[shwah]

Again, back to the, "Why limit ITB and ITC to 6" wide wheels?"
[/b]

More importantly why change the existing rule? 6" wheels are available in 13, 14 and 15" sizes. There are a lot of tires to choose from. The class successfully races on these now. I don't see a compelling reason to change.

If ITB is not 'cool' enough for some to race with, wider wheels won't change that. Let them go get beat somewhere else. :P

[gran racing]

Again, back to the, "Why limit ITB and ITC to 6" wide wheels?"[/b]

Nationally, how many ITB and ITC drivers are there? Why make existing drivers change rims for the sake of a few who are being moved to a class where they can be competitive? I just don't see the need to make this change right now.

[spnkzss]

Nationally, how many ITB and ITC drivers are there? Why make existing drivers change rims for the sake of a few who are being moved to a class where they can be competitive? I just don't see the need to make this change right now.
[/b]

Rim availability. in ITB and ITC you CAN run 15" but you don't have to.

[ScotMac]

Rim availability. in ITB and ITC you CAN run 15" but you don't have to.
[/b]

Exactly. Getting 14x6 or 14x5.5 in a suitable wheel for racing (less than 13lbs) is becoming very difficult, and almost impossible in a 5x100 bolt pattern. B and C cars are correctly classed on power-to-weight and handling, and there is no good reason to restrict the rim size.

Also, running those 225's on a 6" rim (as was alluded to here) can increase the tire wear, due to the much larger side wall angle, and thus increase the cost of racing.

Despite the fact that this change may have a short term negative impact to the current drivers, the real question is what is best for the future of IT. The common wheel size will make it easier and cheaper for B and C drivers to find and use suitable race wheels, thus encouraging more people to race those classes.

-Scot

[Knestis]

...and almost impossible in a 5x100 bolt pattern. ...[/b]

This translates into, "please make it easier for me to be competitive." The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Welcome to the world of competition adjustments (bleah) - whee!

K

PS - you forgot to play the safety card.

[ScotMac]

This translates into, "please make it easier for me to be competitive." The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Welcome to the world of competition adjustments (bleah) - whee!

K

PS - you forgot to play the safety card.
[/b]

This change has nothing to do w/ making me more competitive. The change is the same for everyone. It makes it easier for me to race, that is true, just like it makes it easier for others to race, but not be more competitive.

[RacerBill]

Rim availability. in ITB and ITC you CAN run 15" but you don't have to.
[/b]

Spec line for the Shelby Dodge calls for 15" wheels = you do have to.

I have 18 original Shelby 15X6 wheels - but I would like to lower my unsprung weight (not to mention easing the pain of dismounting and mounting 45 lbs per wheel). I wish I had a buck for every hour I have spent trying to find ANY 15x6 light weight wheels other than custom made.

[shwah]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3415292
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3471250
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478

It took me less than 3 minutes to find these 15x6, 5x100 wheels.

Kodiak, and others will make any wheel you like.

If you need 15 x 6 wheels there are lots of OEM options out there.
If you need very lightweight racing wheels, you will either stumble on a great deal, or spend the $$ required, just like the rest of us.

[ScotMac]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3415292
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3471250
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478

It took me less than 3 minutes to find these 15x6, 5x100 wheels.

Kodiak, and others will make any wheel you like.

If you need 15 x 6 wheels there are lots of OEM options out there.
If you need very lightweight racing wheels, you will either stumble on a great deal, or spend the $$ required, just like the rest of us.
[/b]

As you readily admit, the OEM wheels are not suitable, due to weight. Why pay Kodiak $400-$500 for custom made wheels, when there is no reason B and C should not be allowed to get cheap (er) aftermarket wheels like these (some of which are as cheap as $175/wheel):

http://www.customwheelsdirect.com/wheels_b...il.php?id=62229
http://www.customwheelsdirect.com/wheels_b...il.php?id=62194
http://www.1010tires.com/wheel.asp?wheelbr...=TrakLite+1%2E0
http://www.1010tires.com/wheel.asp?wheelbr...=TrakLite+1%2E0

Thus making it easier for EVERYONE to afford a the lightweight racing wheels.

Also note, the allowing of 15" wheels did almost no good for B and C, due to the 6" and 5.5" rim sizes. Switching to 15" wheels and attempting to go w/ the same ride height requires the obvious switch to lower profile tires. However, the lower profile tires in the racings widths at the same rim width are not recommended, due to the even larger sidewall angles. ie, the 15" tires in lower profiles are only recommended for 7" or greater rims. This can be seen very easily by taking a look at the Hoosier chart below (note that the 225/50/14's are recommended for 6"-8" rims, whereas the 225/45/15's are recommended for 7"-8.5" rims). Hence, the supply is restricted even more for those looking to use 225's to ONLY 14" rims.

Chart:

http://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm#SPOR...A3S04%20&R3S04)

[Knestis]

...Also note, the allowing of 15" wheels did almost no good for B and C, due to the 6" and 5.5" rim sizes. Switching to 15" wheels and attempting to go w/ the same ride height requires the obvious switch to lower profile tires. [/b]

The argument moves from the inaccurate proposition that I WANT to use a 15" wheel. At the point where my 14" options have completely dried up, I might change my mind but at that point, I'm arguing what's good for me - not what's good for IT.

I didn't intend for this to be about wheel sizes particularly. I was simply pointing out that Andy et al. have to err on the side of conservatism when they make decisions like this.

K

Great arguments!! Yes, the change will make racing cheaper (cheaper wheels and longer lasting tires) and easier (greater availability of wheels and tires).
[/b]

...and you completely missed my point, Scot. (Or you are being disingenuous.)

Cheaper - I get to spend dough to replace my $1800 worth of wheels, while others get to spend the same money going faster = more competitive (relatively speaking) for them

K

[ScotMac]

The argument moves from the inaccurate proposition that I WANT to use a 15" wheel. At the point where my 14" options have completely dried up, I might change my mind but at that point, I'm arguing what's good for me - not what's good for IT.

I didn't intend for this to be about wheel sizes particularly. I was simply pointing out that Andy et al. have to err on the side of conservatism when they make decisions like this.

K
[/b]

You need to work on those reading skills!! Instead of constantly trying to find an ulterior motive in what people say, just look at *WHAT* they are saying. Do not attempt to stuff words into other people mouths. :P

I didnt say that i WANT to use 15" wheels, just that allowing the 15x7" wheels give a much greater supply of wheels and tires for the B and C racers.

...and you completely missed my point, Scot. (Or you are being disingenuous.)

Cheaper - I get to spend dough to replace my $1800 worth of wheels, while others get to spend the same money going faster = more competitive (relatively speaking) for them

K
[/b]

Yes, i was somewhat joking w/ you. But in general, the points i stated (cheaper and easier to race) are absolutely good things, and no amount of you trying to say that they are a "competitive adjustment" will change that. A "competitive adjustment" allows one competitor to become more competitive w/ another. This is the SAME for all competitors.

[JoshS]

Yes, i was somewhat joking w/ you. But in general, the points i stated (cheaper and easier to race) are absolutely good things, and no amount of you trying to say that they are a "competitive adjustment" will change that. A "competitive adjustment" allows one competitor to become more competitive w/ another. This is the SAME for all competitors.
[/b]

It's only the same for people who need to buy wheels. For all of the people who already have wheels that they are happy with, this allowance makes things more expensive.

Always a tradeoff ...

[shwah]

This is about a 14lb wheel, according to what I have read.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478

If you want 8lb wheels, expect to pay lots for them.


ScotMac - you have not yet presented a valid argument supporting the need for this change.

No wheels available - turns out not to be true.
No tires that fit - turns out not to be true (I run 205 and 225 wide tires on my 6" wheels)
No ultra light wheels available for real cheap - no kidding!

When (and I say when because I do expect we will get to this point) the availability of 6" wheels actually does dry up, I can agree that such a rule change should be considered. Any time before then, and it is not appropriate.

[shwah]

Actually I run 205 on the 14s, but 205 or 225 on the 13s. No it is not recommended, but neither are lots of things I do to my race car.

edit - I was just looking for an argument for why what we have does not work, NOT an argument for why a change would work better for you.

[gran racing]

Hmmm, maybe I'm getting old, but I seem to have missed the part where someone suggested ITB & ITC would HAVE to use 7" wheels.[/b]

Would people HAVE to use 7” rims? No, but I’m sure we’ll agree there is a competitive advantage of doing so therefore those people who want to remain at the pointy end of the field would need to do so. In the end, I would feel it to be necessary just like getting a IT prepped engine built. An extreme of this, let’s say cam rules open up. Do you HAVE to get modded cams? Just saying, or whatever that quote Greg uses from Scott G. is. LOL

As you readily admit, the OEM wheels are not suitable, due to weight.[/b]

I never said that the OEM wheels aren't available, just that they are not acceptable.[/b]

Hmmm, a car can run in a class where it has absolutely no shot at being a winning car in a competitive region to a class where it could. Even using the absolutely cheapest, junk yard rims, by being moved into a class where the car is much more competitive you just gained quite a bit. That seems pretty cool to me (and did when my Prelude was moved from ITA > IT.

Not that it’s critical to this debate, but for years I used 225/45 Hoosiers on 13x5.5 rims and was never concerned about safety with doing so. When I saw that I could get 9.3 lb 14 x 6 rims for $120 and pick them up at just about any wheel shop, I couldn’t resist.

[ScotMac]

Not that it’s critical to this debate, but for years I used 225/45 Hoosiers on 13x5.5 rims and was never concerned about safety with doing so. When I saw that I could get 9.3 lb 14 x 6 rims for $120 and pick them up at just about any wheel shop, I couldn’t resist.

[/b]

I agree, i don't think it is a safety issue w/ running the 225/45's on 13x5.5 rims. Performance and wear on the shoulder issue could be a different story.

Where can i get a set of those 9.3lb 14x6 rims in a 5x100 pattern for $120, Dave??!!?? Please let me know!!

Actually I run 205 on the 14s, but 205 or 225 on the 13s. No it is not recommended, but neither are lots of things I do to my race car.

edit - I was just looking for an argument for why what we have does not work, NOT an argument for why a change would work better for you.
[/b]

Right, it is easier to run the 225's on the 13's, since you can do a higher/larger profile for the same ride height, and thus make the side wall angle less extreme. 225's on the 15's, if you want the same ride height is a whole different ballgame. ie, the 7" rims will not only allow more overall wheel choices, they will also allow B and C to better take advantage of the 15" rim rule change.

Other than the issue w/ people having previously bought 5.6"/6" rims, i see no real negative to the change, and some obvious positives.

Note, i just bought some 14x6" spinwerkes wheels myself, which go for $208/wheel.

[shwah]

I agree, i don't think it is a safety issue w/ running the 225/45's on 13x5.5 rims. Performance and wear on the shoulder issue could be a different story.

Where can i get a set of those 9.3lb 14x6 rims in a 5x100 pattern for $120, Dave??!!?? Please let me know!!
Right, it is easier to run the 225's on the 13's, since you can do a higher/larger profile for the same ride height, and thus make the side wall angle less extreme. 225's on the 15's, if you want the same ride height is a whole different ballgame. ie, the 7" rims will not only allow more overall wheel choices, they will also allow B and C to better take advantage of the 15" rim rule change.

Other than the issue w/ people having previously bought 5.6"/6" rims, i see no real negative to the change, and some obvious positives.

Note, i just bought some 14x6" spinwerkes wheels myself, which go for $208/wheel.
[/b]

Just put a set of 225/45 - 13 on my 13x6 wheels. Not recommended by Hoosier, but I have my reasons. I think this is pretty similar to what you are talking about with 15s.

I guess this is where our opinions differ. You say that if there is no negative, and/or a positive to make a change it should be done (of course you forget to note that there is a negative to those that were doing fine and must now make changes). I say that if you cannot show me how the current rule is failing us, there is no compelling reason to make a change, even if you think there are no negatives.

[Knestis]

New idea. Everyone in ITB should be required to run a MkIII Golf.

- Easier - parts are affordable and available, large knowledge base built up from earlier generation VWs that translates directly to this model, compared to less common options (e.g., Honda Prelude, Chrysler Shelby); opportunity to share spares at events

- Better competition - everyone running the same chassis would take make/model out of the equation and increase the quality of racing

- Simpler rules enforcement/compliance - everyone would know the cars so be able to better police the competition

- More economical - VW offers a contingency ($150 to win a Regional, thank you) so net costs go down; cheaper to develop given growing shared knowledge base; potential for group buy discounts on parts

- Safer - bumpers are all at the same height, decreasing chance of damage or injury

And hey - it's NEUTRAL

K

[BlueStreak]

New idea. Everyone in ITB should be required to run a MkIII Golf.

- Easier - parts are affordable and available, large knowledge base built up from earlier generation VWs that translates directly to this model, compared to less common options (e.g., Honda Prelude, Chrysler Shelby); opportunity to share spares at events

- Better competition - everyone running the same chassis would take make/model out of the equation and increase the quality of racing

- Simpler rules enforcement/compliance - everyone would know the cars so be able to better police the competition

- More economical - VW offers a contingency ($150 to win a Regional, thank you) so net costs go down; cheaper to develop given growing shared knowledge base; potential for group buy discounts on parts

- Safer - bumpers are all at the same height, decreasing chance of damage or injury

And hey - it's NEUTRAL

K
[/b]

I know this was tongue in cheek - and this is WAY off topic - but if VW really wants to learn something about motorsports marketing, they should check out SpecMiata, it has been fairly successful

If VW put a little weight behind assisting in the development of SpecGolf (or even SpecRabbit, since that name is back) I bet you it would do well. I'm not kidding myself, it would not do as well as SpecMiata (Miata's are just better race cars), BUT, if it achieved one tenth of the popularity of SpecMiata, SpecGolf
would be more successful than a lot of current classes. (remember the original GTI Cup?)