October Fastrack

[JamesB]

Matt I understand your fustration about the move, but seriously you would still have a lot of great people to race with in ITB had you not already moved to change cars. Plus other then the wheels size you know what tires I stuff on my rims and I dont have that much of an issue other then someone I can trust to put that tire on the rim without breaking it. Think about the Volvo's and what they deal with tire wise yet they are up in the top 10.

[spnkzss]

Again, back to the, "Why limit ITB and ITC to 6" wide wheels?"

[gran racing]

Again, back to the, "Why limit ITB and ITC to 6" wide wheels?"[/b]

Nationally, how many ITB and ITC drivers are there? Why make existing drivers change rims for the sake of a few who are being moved to a class where they can be competitive? I just don't see the need to make this change right now.

[spnkzss]

Nationally, how many ITB and ITC drivers are there? Why make existing drivers change rims for the sake of a few who are being moved to a class where they can be competitive? I just don't see the need to make this change right now.
[/b]

Rim availability. in ITB and ITC you CAN run 15" but you don't have to.

[ScotMac]

Screwed? You've got to be kidding me. The car goes from being in a class where it has no shot to one where it can be competitive. Yeah, you really got screwed on this deal.

Matt, I understand your frustration about the timing, and how you've grown to like racing with the ITA group but come on. Affect setup? So slightly change the camber settings.
[/b]

Dave, "screwed" in terms of wheels only, not whether the move was overall a good thing or not.

[shwah]

Again, back to the, "Why limit ITB and ITC to 6" wide wheels?"
[/b]

More importantly why change the existing rule? 6" wheels are available in 13, 14 and 15" sizes. There are a lot of tires to choose from. The class successfully races on these now. I don't see a compelling reason to change.

If ITB is not 'cool' enough for some to race with, wider wheels won't change that. Let them go get beat somewhere else. :P

[ScotMac]

Rim availability. in ITB and ITC you CAN run 15" but you don't have to.
[/b]

Exactly. Getting 14x6 or 14x5.5 in a suitable wheel for racing (less than 13lbs) is becoming very difficult, and almost impossible in a 5x100 bolt pattern. B and C cars are correctly classed on power-to-weight and handling, and there is no good reason to restrict the rim size.

Also, running those 225's on a 6" rim (as was alluded to here) can increase the tire wear, due to the much larger side wall angle, and thus increase the cost of racing.

Despite the fact that this change may have a short term negative impact to the current drivers, the real question is what is best for the future of IT. The common wheel size will make it easier and cheaper for B and C drivers to find and use suitable race wheels, thus encouraging more people to race those classes.

-Scot

[Knestis]

...and almost impossible in a 5x100 bolt pattern. ...[/b]

This translates into, "please make it easier for me to be competitive." The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Welcome to the world of competition adjustments (bleah) - whee!

K

PS - you forgot to play the safety card.

[ScotMac]

This translates into, "please make it easier for me to be competitive." The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Welcome to the world of competition adjustments (bleah) - whee!

K

PS - you forgot to play the safety card.
[/b]

This change has nothing to do w/ making me more competitive. The change is the same for everyone. It makes it easier for me to race, that is true, just like it makes it easier for others to race, but not be more competitive.

[erlrich]

Thereby putting the burden for the change on those of us who have invested in 6" wheels. [/b]

Why make existing drivers change rims for the sake of a few who are being moved to a class where they can be competitive? [/b]

The current B cars seem to be able to get by just fine on 6" wheels.[/b]

Hmmm, maybe I'm getting old, but I seem to have missed the part where someone suggested ITB & ITC would HAVE to use 7" wheels. Kind of the same deal as the open ECU - just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to get one, right?

[shwah]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3415292
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3471250
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478

It took me less than 3 minutes to find these 15x6, 5x100 wheels.

Kodiak, and others will make any wheel you like.

If you need 15 x 6 wheels there are lots of OEM options out there.
If you need very lightweight racing wheels, you will either stumble on a great deal, or spend the $$ required, just like the rest of us.

[ScotMac]

Why make existing drivers change rims for the sake of a few who are being moved to a class where they can be competitive?

[/b]

The ability to not have change wheels for the cars that get moved between classes is just a side benefit. The main reason for the change is the lack of availability of suitable 6" and 5.5" wheels.

[shwah]

Hmmm, maybe I'm getting old, but I seem to have missed the part where someone suggested ITB & ITC would HAVE to use 7" wheels. Kind of the same deal as the open ECU - just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to get one, right?
[/b]

You are right. I personally would have to, because I race to win, and my car would perform better with a wider wheel. The argument was made that cars will burn up tires, or cannot get tires (or wheels) that work with the current rule.

I was simply calling BS on that theory, because lots of similar cars race on 6" wheels with all their faults now without issue.

It is a bummer to have a recently built ITA car that just got moved to ITB, and have to change wheel size. I agree. However, this is no justification to change the rule for entire classes to make it less of a bummer for that handful of affected drivers.

[RacerBill]

Rim availability. in ITB and ITC you CAN run 15" but you don't have to.
[/b]

Spec line for the Shelby Dodge calls for 15" wheels = you do have to.

I have 18 original Shelby 15X6 wheels - but I would like to lower my unsprung weight (not to mention easing the pain of dismounting and mounting 45 lbs per wheel). I wish I had a buck for every hour I have spent trying to find ANY 15x6 light weight wheels other than custom made.

[RacerBill]

Hmmm, maybe I'm getting old, but I seem to have missed the part where someone suggested ITB & ITC would HAVE to use 7" wheels. Kind of the same deal as the open ECU - just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to get one, right?
[/b]

Once someone near the pointy end of the field gets 'em and gets faster, everybody will feel they have to get 'em.

But you're right in that you don't "HAVE to use 7" wheels" (keep it light!)

[ScotMac]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3415292
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3471250
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478

It took me less than 3 minutes to find these 15x6, 5x100 wheels.

Kodiak, and others will make any wheel you like.

If you need 15 x 6 wheels there are lots of OEM options out there.
If you need very lightweight racing wheels, you will either stumble on a great deal, or spend the $$ required, just like the rest of us.
[/b]

As you readily admit, the OEM wheels are not suitable, due to weight. Why pay Kodiak $400-$500 for custom made wheels, when there is no reason B and C should not be allowed to get cheap (er) aftermarket wheels like these (some of which are as cheap as $175/wheel):

http://www.customwheelsdirect.com/wheels_b...il.php?id=62229
http://www.customwheelsdirect.com/wheels_b...il.php?id=62194
http://www.1010tires.com/wheel.asp?wheelbr...=TrakLite+1%2E0
http://www.1010tires.com/wheel.asp?wheelbr...=TrakLite+1%2E0

Thus making it easier for EVERYONE to afford a the lightweight racing wheels.

Also note, the allowing of 15" wheels did almost no good for B and C, due to the 6" and 5.5" rim sizes. Switching to 15" wheels and attempting to go w/ the same ride height requires the obvious switch to lower profile tires. However, the lower profile tires in the racings widths at the same rim width are not recommended, due to the even larger sidewall angles. ie, the 15" tires in lower profiles are only recommended for 7" or greater rims. This can be seen very easily by taking a look at the Hoosier chart below (note that the 225/50/14's are recommended for 6"-8" rims, whereas the 225/45/15's are recommended for 7"-8.5" rims). Hence, the supply is restricted even more for those looking to use 225's to ONLY 14" rims.

Chart:

http://www.hoosiertire.com/specrr.htm#SPOR...A3S04%20&R3S04)

[Knestis]

This change has nothing to do w/ making me more competitive. The change is the same for everyone. It makes it easier for me to race, that is true, just like it makes it easier for others to race, but not be more competitive.
[/b]

I'm not picking on you in particular but pretty much every request for a change has everything to do with making someone more competitive:

- Cheaper = more competitive, since it will free up money to buy other performance improvements

- Longer lasting (aka "Safer") = more competitive for the same reason; money gets spent on tires rather than replacing [whatever] that has to be replaced often

- Easier = more competitive, since time saved doing X means time (and money, same thing) to do Y

- Safer = (generally) more competitive, given all kinds of pretzel logic about how the current situation is unsafe

I've been in this game a long time and there are only a few things that I have grown to REALLY count on as truisms. One is that, "If someone requests a rule change, it's sure as heck not because they think it's going to make them SLOWER."

K

[ScotMac]

I'm not picking on you in particular but pretty much every request for a change has everything to do with making someone more competitive:

- Cheaper = more competitive, since it will free up money to buy other performance improvements

- Longer lasting (aka "Safer") = more competitive for the same reason; money gets spent on tires rather than replacing [whatever] that has to be replaced often

- Easier = more competitive, since time saved doing X means time (and money, same thing) to do Y

- Safer = (generally) more competitive, given all kinds of pretzel logic about how the current situation is unsafe

I've been in this game a long time and there are only a few things that I have grown to REALLY count on as truisms. One is that, "If someone requests a rule change, it's sure as heck not because they think it's going to make them SLOWER."

K
[/b]

Great arguments!! Yes, the change will make racing cheaper (cheaper wheels and longer lasting tires) and easier (greater availability of wheels and tires).

[Knestis]

...Also note, the allowing of 15" wheels did almost no good for B and C, due to the 6" and 5.5" rim sizes. Switching to 15" wheels and attempting to go w/ the same ride height requires the obvious switch to lower profile tires. [/b]

The argument moves from the inaccurate proposition that I WANT to use a 15" wheel. At the point where my 14" options have completely dried up, I might change my mind but at that point, I'm arguing what's good for me - not what's good for IT.

I didn't intend for this to be about wheel sizes particularly. I was simply pointing out that Andy et al. have to err on the side of conservatism when they make decisions like this.

K

Great arguments!! Yes, the change will make racing cheaper (cheaper wheels and longer lasting tires) and easier (greater availability of wheels and tires).
[/b]

...and you completely missed my point, Scot. (Or you are being disingenuous.)

Cheaper - I get to spend dough to replace my $1800 worth of wheels, while others get to spend the same money going faster = more competitive (relatively speaking) for them

K

[ScotMac]

The argument moves from the inaccurate proposition that I WANT to use a 15" wheel. At the point where my 14" options have completely dried up, I might change my mind but at that point, I'm arguing what's good for me - not what's good for IT.

I didn't intend for this to be about wheel sizes particularly. I was simply pointing out that Andy et al. have to err on the side of conservatism when they make decisions like this.

K
[/b]

You need to work on those reading skills!! Instead of constantly trying to find an ulterior motive in what people say, just look at *WHAT* they are saying. Do not attempt to stuff words into other people mouths. :P

I didnt say that i WANT to use 15" wheels, just that allowing the 15x7" wheels give a much greater supply of wheels and tires for the B and C racers.

...and you completely missed my point, Scot. (Or you are being disingenuous.)

Cheaper - I get to spend dough to replace my $1800 worth of wheels, while others get to spend the same money going faster = more competitive (relatively speaking) for them

K
[/b]

Yes, i was somewhat joking w/ you. But in general, the points i stated (cheaper and easier to race) are absolutely good things, and no amount of you trying to say that they are a "competitive adjustment" will change that. A "competitive adjustment" allows one competitor to become more competitive w/ another. This is the SAME for all competitors.