September fastrack

[shwah]

I think there are a number of letters that did not make this fast-trac, and expect to see them in the next. I know neither of the items I wrote about were noted. There is enough lead time on the document that I always assume letters will be addressed in the 2nd or 3rd issue after I send them.

[tnord]

Doesn't the early MR2 have the same drivetrain as the GEO Prism GSI that is in ITB? Seems strange to me that the car is in ITA. I have been on track with these cars and they are not ITA competitive.

just my $.02
[/b]

riiiiiggghhhhttt..............because motor type is the only consideration we need when classing cars.

PS - i didn't bother writing another letter against the ECU. I wrote one the first time around when it really mattered and i was in the overwhelming minority. The ITAC thinks it's good for the class, the majority of those writing letters thinks it's a good thing, i'm conceding the fight.

[cmaclean]

Guys, it's pointless sending the letters to the CRB in support/opposition to the ECU rule. The CRB already made their recommendation to the BOD who's job it is to make the final decision. Write your local BOD member if you feel strongly on this issue. I did.

[Chris Wire]

Guys, it's pointless sending the letters to the CRB in support/opposition to the ECU rule. The CRB already made their recommendation to the BOD who's job it is to make the final decision. Write your local BOD member if you feel strongly on this issue. I did.
[/b]

That's what people say about the gov't......and I would respond by pointing out the recently defeated "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007".

Good idea on writing the local BOD members, I just sent mine. I know that they probably get them anyway through other channels, but sometimes a direct contact has more effect. And keep writing anyway; it's often the one really good letter and arguement that starts the tipping point one way or another. You never know until you scream!

[DavidM]

My ECU letter went to the BoD. I figure they wind up getting sent to the ITAC as well.

David

[steve b]

Doug - Not to put your boxers in a bunch, and you do have a well prepared tub, but how much have you done in engine prep, final drive gearing, and tuning? Process weight has to take into account a full It legal engine build. If you can prove to ITAC that a fully IT prepared motor cannot make the power they are averaging on then maybe the process weight for ITB would change.
[/b]

I bought Peter Doane's (previously referred to in this post) ITA MR2. Would it help if I show the $6k bill from TED that came with the car and my dyno sheet?

[gran racing]

Steve,
I'd love to see it. Knowing just how much work Peter did to that car, it would be interesting.

[dickita15]

actually that would be of value. if I am not mistaken one of the issues withthe Mr2 is the power potential. after all it's a formula atlatic motor right.
can one of the ITAC guys comment on if the MR2 had a higher that average power % expected or am I remebering it wrong.

[steve b]

Jake,
I'll try to remember to take the sheet to work Monday and I'll scan it and email it to you.

[JeffYoung]

Steve, this is Jeff Young, met you up at Summit at your school (I was crewing on the silver Z). Shoot me an email at [email protected] and let me know how your first season went.

[Andy Bettencourt]

can one of the ITAC guys comment on if the MR2 had a higher that average power % expected or am I remebering it wrong.

[/b]

You are remembering it wrong Dick. Standard % applies/applied. The arguement has always been that these motors CAN'T make even average power increases in IT legal trim.

[drgoodwrench]

Do we have a new ECU rule for sure? I spent many hours putting a programmable unit into the stock box, was that now a waste of time? Personally I think allowing full engine management add ons is best reserved for GT and Production budgets.

[dickita15]

You are remembering it wrong Dick. Standard % applies/applied. The arguement has always been that these motors CAN'T make even average power increases in IT legal trim.
[/b]

Then Dyno sheet from a well prepared car woudl be a useful data point, yes?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Then Dyno sheet from a well prepared car woudl be a useful data point, yes? [/b]

Sure. But one data point is just that. Dyno data is questionable in it's singularity. It is most persuasive when multiples can add up to make a documentable 'trend'.

When submitting dyno data (as a reason for a request), please make sure you provide every piece of info possible:

Build date vs. dyno date
All internal engine mods
All external engine mods
Type of ECU
Type of dyno
HP and Torque curves

[JamesB]

I bought Peter Doane's (previously referred to in this post) ITA MR2. Would it help if I show the $6k bill from TED that came with the car and my dyno sheet?
[/b]

Steve I was replying to Doug with my message. I dont know your cars build, so if you can prove the power a full IT trim motor can make then send it over to ITAC with the information above. My bunching boxers comment was at Doug who is running quiet well for a motor that is not an all out IT engine.

[gran racing]

Standard % applies/applied. [/b]

Just out of curosity, what made this an ITA car vs. moving it to ITB with the appropriate weight? Is it primarily because the engine is in the rear / RWD?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just out of curosity, what made this an ITA car vs. moving it to ITB with the appropriate weight? Is it primarily because the engine is in the rear / RWD? [/b]

Can we agree that given the same engine and suspension - a car with FWD should weigh less than a car with RWD/mid engine? How much is subjective and will never be perfect but the Geo Prism is at 2455. How much do you want this thing to weigh in ITB? Since it can make process weight in ITA, it was voted to 'fit'.

Yes, you can bump cars down any number of classes to make them fit - like a 3015lbs ITS 13B RX-7 in ITA or a 2975lb ITA SE-R in ITB...but it seems like the 'highest' possible class at the lowest possible weight is what makes sense.

You want a 2550lb MK1 MR-2 in ITB on 6" wheels? 250lbs of ballast sound like something you want to add?

Is it possible that there are just 'tweener' cars that, under the current structure, aren't 'great' for either the upper or lower class?

Understand this is Devil's Advocate stuff. Questions you should ask yourself.

[gran racing]

Yes I would agree that a FWD car should weigh less than a RWD car. Using you logic, one could also argue that the MR2 should be in ITS at 2,000 lbs or ITR at 1,700 lbs. Come on Andy, stop with the BS. I was simply trying to understand the logic behind this decision. In IT, I would rather see people / cars not to struggle (assuming it could even make weight legally) to get down to a minimum weight. Going back to what Dick said, it sure is easier to add lead to a car than spend a ton of money trying to figure out ways to get down to min. weight. I know with my car I'd much rather struggle to get upto 2,450 in ITB than down to 2,250 in ITA.

Interesting answer, although I could have skipped through some of the fluff to attain the real answer. Sounds like a big portion of the decision is based upon RWD, and the opinion that it can realistically get down to the ITA min. weight.

[JoshS]

In IT, I would rather see people / cars not to struggle (assuming it could even make weight legally) to get down to a minimum weight. Going back to what Dick said, it sure is easier to add lead to a car than spend a ton of money trying to figure out ways to get down to min. weight.
[/b]

There really are two schools of thought here. One says that it can be expensive to get down to minimum weight, even if it's well within the rules to do so. So people don't want to spend money there. Just as people might not want to spend money on headers, even though they will make their car go faster.

The other is that people don't want to add weight to a car that is a race car. Race car people like having light cars. People want their race car to be lighter in race trim than in street trim. It's not a race car if it's got 300 lbs or more of lead bolted to the floor. Or if it's still got its interior in place. Etc.

Most people seem to be in the former camp. Sounds like you are in the latter.

If it's clearly demonstrated that a car cannot legally make its minimum weight, then that would be a very good argument to reclass it. But it seems like most of the requests to reclass are not based on "it can't get there," but rather, "I don't want to have to spend money to get there." There is a difference.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes I would agree that a FWD car should weigh less than a RWD car. Using you logic, one could also argue that the MR2 should be in ITS at 2,000 lbs or ITR at 1,700 lbs. Come on Andy, stop with the BS. I was simply trying to understand the logic behind this decision. [/b]

Dave, it would seem you are too close to this situation to discuss it rationally. The point I was clearly making is that you can move ANY car DOWN and make it weigh more. Not up, at an unattainable weight, which nobody suggested or implied. Sure you could CLASS cars that way, but it would be stupid to do so.

In IT, I would rather see people / cars not to struggle (assuming it could even make weight legally) to get down to a minimum weight.[/b]

Neither would I. But I would also argue that most people would rather bust a nut to get down to a possible minimum weight than have to add 250+lbs of lead to a car - and deal with all the associated headaches that brings upon you (hubs, rotors, pads, spindles, insert increased wear item here). Like I said, cars should be classed in the highest (fastest) class they can fit while acheiveing min weight.

Going back to what Dick said, it sure is easier to add lead to a car than spend a ton of money trying to figure out ways to get down to min. weight. I know with my car I'd much rather struggle to get upto 2,450 in ITB than down to 2,250 in ITA.[/b]

For sure. But what if there was a 300lb difference in weight? How about 350? How much weight do you want to add? What is safe? The MR2 can make it from what we have learned.

Interesting answer, although I could have skipped through some of the fluff to attain the real answer. Sounds like a big portion of the decision is based upon RWD, and the opinion that it can realistically get down to the ITA min. weight. [/b]

Guys, its a tweener car. It has been determined that the ITA weight that fits the process is obtainable and that the weight in ITB it must run at is too much to ask people to add. It's too bad becasue its a cool car, but no matter how you design the class structure, there will be cars that fall in between.

[Devils Advocate hat off]