whataboutlrp?

[RKramden]

The pace car sets the speed of the start - according to the GCR - and at the specific direction of our stewards this year. I also reference 6.2.2.E - last sentence: "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off."
[/b]

And I have known pole sitters to have been penalized for balking at the start, e.g. not keeping up with the pace car.

So in my mind, this begs the question - would it have been LEGAL for me to keep pace with the pace car putting the actual 'questionable action' on Richie - since he DIDN'T keep pace as he should have?
[/b]

The GCR is indeed gray and even conflicting, in that you clearly can try to follow the rules and no matter what you do, you are going to break one of them.

I was in line before any starting official could see me...[/b]

This is false. The starter can see you from the instant you pop out from under the bridge. We use that to help judge how well the pack ( is / is not ) forming up.

is that an actual fault? If I were P1 and you were P2 and I slowed and you advanced without knowing it - should you be penalized?
[/b]

I would never call you for an infraction under these conditions, but I might call in that P1 balked the start. Again, it is so far from the starters stand that it is difficult to judge speeds and whom is slowing and whom is speeding up, but the fact that the P1 car dropped back from the pace car is very clear.

The stewards doing something about it is a whole 'nother question. Most won't.

Debate on - It's a very interesting and rare situation to have the P1 car slow down to less MPH than the PC.
[/b]

Happens a lot more than you would think. <_<

[Tom Blaney]

What I find interesting is that everybody is doing all kinds of tweeking of what the rule says, when it all reality is gets down to two facts.

First, the Pole Sitter should use reasonable judgement to keep the pack tight and well formed. But he did earn the right to be the LEAD CAR, THE TOP DOG, THE FIRST PLACE QUALIFIER, THE POLE SITTER. That means that in terms of gentlemenly racing, the P2 car is still not (any of the above). If the pole sitter wants to slow the pack down to his advantage, he won that right by beating everybody else&#39;s lap times. So as a gentleman racer everyone else in the pack has to respect his right. I know and have raced Richie and I don&#39;t think he is the type of guy to pulse the field, however I know of plenty of P2 cars who are trying to get a jump on P1.

Secondly, The pace car is suppose to set the pace and bunch the field tightly for a start. That means (again in gentlemenly racing) that if he looks in his mirrors before turn 9, and only sees half the field he should SLOW THE HELL DOWN and form the field. If the pace car does this, than the clown in P15 won&#39;t be doing brake taps on P17 just so he can get 3&#39; of running room on P13. The field will be tight and slow, and when the pace car accelerates out of the way, P1 will have a tight formation, and won&#39;t have to bother with P2 trying to do the "Well I&#39;m almost as fast as P1 so I should have some say in the start" If P1 does act like a jerk (and yes it does happen) than it is up to the Starter and the Stewards to determine if he/she should get slapped, not the guy in P2 who is having a hissy fit because the start is too slow for his gear change.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am going to edit my post - I wrote it as I was running out the door...

What Tom doesn&#39;t get is that we have two conflicting rules. There was no attempt here to get a &#39;jump&#39; on P1 - as has been stated, and the video clearly shows. The question is whether or not P1 is required to keep pace with the pace car - and what is the rest of the field obligated to do if it doesn&#39;t.

Tom talks in &#39;old school&#39; gentleman terms with no support from the GCR. P1 has no responsibility for the bunching of the field as long as they are doing what they are supposed to behind the pace car. All I want to do is be fast - and legal - both in the tech shed and on the track. EVERY one of our starts for me this year has been from the middle of second gear - it&#39;s just what we do now.

Keeping pace with the pace car should be priority #1. No faster, no slower. If P1 doesn&#39;t do it - is P2&#39;s obligation to P1, the rest of the field, the pace car, the GCR - what?

I have been in P1 more than half my races this year. I would love to control the speed of the start - but I DON&#39;T. The PACE CAR DOES.

[dazzlesa]

i would like to see clarification in the gcr for all of us.

[Andy Bettencourt]

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=238828

[JLawton]

Andy, Tim

Don&#39;t take any of this personal:

Andy, I always hate to admitt when you are right!! But I think you were OK. You seemed to quickly get off the gas and let Richie catch up. It even seem as Richie was getting onto the straight, he gave it a "little" blip that put him ahead.

Tim (Mr Stone Thrower), you&#39;ve been known to hold back on the starts and end up getting a good run at the start!!


I&#39;ve certainly seen much worse!!

[JohnRW]

Andy did nothing wrong. People fart around &#39;under starters orders&#39; all the time, whether it&#39;s P1 or P15. That Andy didn&#39;t immediately notice that P1 had slowed below the speed of the pace car is inconsequential...he appeared to &#39;fix it&#39; before the pack arrived on the front straight, and that&#39;s what counts (although the view we see doesn&#39;t show us where Andy in the moments just before the gree comes out).

While the Starter and Start judges may be looking at the pack as they come down the hill, there is no way they make any judgements about &#39;advancing a position&#39; etc. before the pack has arrived on the front straight, and if you asked them, they would likely say "that&#39;s absurd...no way". I&#39;ve been in that Start Tower, and have been a Start Judge there, and that&#39;s how I would react.

At some tracks, P1 is given explicit instructions on the grid by a Steward to &#39;maintain the speed of the pace car&#39;, and any deviation from that is actionable. Slow down excessively, screw around and accordion the field, etc. are all things that annoy us all, and get you extra special attention from the Pace Car, Starter & Stewards.

I know P1 cars have been penalized for jumping a start (happened to a friend of mine), and others that have been penalized for balking a start. Neither seems to be the case here.

JW
IT/SM/SRF commando, rarely on pole (but it does happen !), usually mid-pack meat (200+ race starts...)
SCCA Steward
...& All-Around Swell Guy

[dickita15]

...& All-Around Swell Guy
[/b]

maybe they can perscribe something for that swelling.

[Jeremy Billiel]

How many cars ended up showing for the weekend?

[Andy Bettencourt]

How many cars ended up showing for the weekend? [/b]

&#39;Bout 175.

[wdether]

&#39;Bout 175.
[/b]

I think the break even number was about 230 - 235.

[Eagle7]

&#39;Bout 175.

[/b]

Hear any talk of how many of them might come to Mid-O if there&#39;s no schedule conflict?

[Tkczecheredflag]

Andy, Tim

Don&#39;t take any of this personal:

Andy, I always hate to admitt when you are right!! But I think you were OK. You seemed to quickly get off the gas and let Richie catch up. It even seem as Richie was getting onto the straight, he gave it a "little" blip that put him ahead.

Tim (Mr Stone Thrower), you&#39;ve been known to hold back on the starts and end up getting a good run at the start!!
I&#39;ve certainly seen much worse!!
[/b]

Jeff - Please re-read the thread - There were no stones available to be thrown. The comment was purely and observation and that has now taken on a life of it&#39;s own. I will reiterate that in no way did it effect the outcome of the race - Andy drove a great race as I previously stated - Although I found the start a bit odd - that&#39;s all, just and observation not a critizism. As a result it has caused us to debate it the protocol. I would be the first to admit (and did so in this thread) that every advantage should be taken to get a good start. If you feel I have created some unfair advantage or performed poorly at previous race starts, I would be compelled to post all of my starts this season, for all to review, and will if I am asked to do so. Truth be told I am just a great starter (FA, if I don&#39;t say so myself) - It&#39;s the rest of the race I have trouble with.

Hope you had fun in Ohio - We await the posts of your adventure.

Andy - I still want to know about the Oreo cookie and milk in Impound

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - I still want to know about the Oreo cookie and milk in Impound [/b]

Someday Grasshopper. Someday. :P

[dominojd]

Andy - I still want to know about the Oreo cookie and milk in Impound
[/b]

I&#39;m gonna take a guess on this one and will probably be right. When you win the Indy 500 they drink the milk. Well Andy has won the Narrc championship so in comparision to the Indy 500 that would be childs play and would be milk and cookies. Let me know if I am close there Champ. Congrats.

[Tkczecheredflag]

I&#39;m gonna take a guess on this one and will probably be right. When you win the Indy 500 they drink the milk. Well Andy has won the Narrc championship so in comparision to the Indy 500 that would be childs play and would be milk and cookies. Let me know if I am close there Champ. Congrats.
[/b]

Hey Joe - Welcome back.

Good guess. Sorry I missed the opportunity to congratulate Andy at the track.

Congrats to Andy B - 2007 NARRC Champ - Nicely done.

What did the priest say - "snatch the cookie from my hand Grasshooper". - and then what happened - did he smack Grasshooper in the head?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I&#39;m gonna take a guess on this one and will probably be right. When you win the Indy 500 they drink the milk. Well Andy has won the Narrc championship so in comparision to the Indy 500 that would be childs play and would be milk and cookies. Let me know if I am close there Champ. Congrats. [/b]

The Oreo is a little joke within the team - this time it just came with Milk...

[wepsbee]

To TKczecheredflag
I am the new guy in the blue ford escort. I appreciate the comment about trying to stay out of your way during the race. It was my first race and I did worry about getting in the way of the guys who have doing it awhile. One of my nighmares was wrecking someone else during the race. I plan on becoming more aggresive as I obtain some experience. But it is nice to know someone else noticed I was trying. Thanks to all and see you next year. Sorry about the long delay in answering but I just found out about the website.