Value in creating a new heavily entry level / budget focused category?

[Knestis]

>> ...What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine.

Hunt up anyone who used to run F440 and ask them.

K

[ddewhurst]

***I do expect to have fun, learn how to race, meet new people and make new friendships. But the bottom line is to have FUN.***

***I've heard it described as a beer club that uses racing as an excuse to have a party (please insert "while drinking beer").

Be safe and have fun.***

***Have Fun ; )
David Dewhurst
CenDiv Milwaukee Region
ITA/7 #14***

I agree ^ with you guys 100%. Racing is about people who Have Fun.

[DavidM]

What we need is a predictable stable set of rules so that your AVERAGE budget minded racer can feel PROTECTED by the rulebook- simply that he's not throwing his money away on efforts made to date (e36 ITS BMW comes to mind), only to have them change next season.

The rules creep and lack of stability in the philosophy of the class is what drives classes away from "entry level". What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine. Ruels change, costs change. It is the variability in the ruleset that introduces the variables in the racers budget. Keep one stable and the other becomes more predictable and vice versa.

R
[/b]

X2

Good post.

David

[msogren]

RE # 37, Chris. I was proposing a pro style of class management . The Mk 1 , 2 and 3 Vw would just get balanced so the racing was very close. This would reduce cost in the long run , because the winner would get some weight, and the super fast cars would get slowed down, negating a lot of dyno dollars,spec tires help.
Making the racing better, closer, and thus more fun.is what it is all about for me. the next level.
When the cars are even and slow , the drivers get better quick.
It cost about 10-20k to build a valid ITB VW. I spent about4K , as I have done it a few times and know what is usefull and what is just bling. The car is worth about 5k after you have spent 10.
There is a reason that the circle tracks start the high points guy in the rear. The racing is better, closer, stuff happens , and the spectators , as well as the drivers enjoy it!! My track can add weight if you kick butt every week, also.
IMHo ,it is a lot more fun to work for three laps for a pass, than to start out front and drive away, but I am old and have done that, now the racing is whats cool, the trophy shelf got thrown out.
Topic; I suggest to get a group of ITB VWs, agree on a tire and go at it.

Mike Ogren

[Z3_GoCar]

Only way to make this work is if you use a vehicle that no one makes any aftermarket parts for. I envision a series for mini-vans with all the glass removed. Caravan, Villager, MPV, Windstar, and for a little rear wheel drive the Astro. Allow open exhausts and strip the interior, a basic cage and that's it

It'd be like tree top tall Me-otters. I already have run with a Ford Ranger in SP, sort of like a mini NASCAR craftsman truck

James

[Despr8dave]

IT used to be cheap because it was new, not because the rules were different.

We didn't do a lot of the things we COULD do, because we didn't NEED to. Build an actual engine rather than run the one that was in it when you drove that Rabbit to school? No way. Spend money welding in a real rollcage when you could bolt in an Autopower in one Saturday, with time for beer breaks and trips to Ernst Hardware for more 3/8" drill bits? That would be silly. The guys up front could be there because they were the early adopters.

We also didn't have the opportunity to spend dough on things, because some of them just weren't available. Choice of diffs ($500-1000) - nope. Open or welded. Bin of 2.25" springs of different rates? Uh-uh. One set, off-the-shelf "race springs" for the stock-style Koni Sports. Bushings? What are bushings, again? You can't buy what isn't available, and pretty much none of us had the wherewithal to actually MAKE stuff.

Then that changed, gradually, as competition improved the quality of the front end of the grid. Competition. On the track and in the marketplace.

We could start spec Kia, on Chinese snow tires with claimer engines. It would stay cheap until someone started to care. Until TWO DRIVERS started to care, anyway.

K
[/b]

I agree with this view of it. But I like the idea of a mini van better than the Kia. You would not need to tow a trailor. You could carry avery thing in the van!

[NutDriverRighty]

In regard to F500, they're currently having test mules made for 600cc motorcycle engined cars being built. Jay Novak (of Novakar, Rakavon) has one that's about ready to test. Jack Walbran is also talking of making a Maverick/Scorpion into what they're calling an "F600". In regard to stable engine rules amongst F5, there have been quite a few "discussions" about the 493 vs. 494, the RAVE valve, etc. Seems that every class faces similar issues in regard to rules.

Have to agree that having fun is my biggest draw. Sure, I like to get a plaque/trophy, but the local trophy store sells them and will even name me 2007 F1 World Champion if I have the $. Being able to spend time with friends, have some friendly competition, and go at greater than highway speeds for the weekend is all the fun I need. :P

Scott

What about Scion Xb spec class, only allowing a designated street tire and a couple of TRD upgrades (catback, springs, strut tower braces). Could you imagine "The Great Toaster Races"?? Imagine the draft that this thing would throw down the back stretch at Road Atlanta! That is, if you could get it going fast enough to knock a hole in the air.

Scott
www.NutDriver.org

[shwah]

RE #44 Mike

I don't have 10 into mine, but had a lot of good advice about what works going into the build, am a cheap bastard and took time to gather the right parts at a deal, and do a lot myself. So I guess the whole cost thing is relative.

I am sure it is a regional thing, but it is not uncommon to have 4 or more ITB VWs covered by a second in our area. This is why the idea just doesn't strike me as compelling. Of course as I am preparing my car to be competitive in November that may change and I may come around to your way of thinking, when I get tired of racing with the ITA guys.

[Spinnetti]

Well, with the seemly endless rule changes to IT the last few years, and the slow decline of prod, why not just combine prod and IT, with different handicaps or something based on prep level? (i.e. extend the limited prep type rules)...

What about the stuff cal club has done over the years? I haven't looked closely at them, but IT-7 and there was an old Corolla class too - those seemed to be the right kind of direction?

Only way to make this work is if you use a vehicle that no one makes any aftermarket parts for. I envision a series for mini-vans with all the glass removed. Caravan, Villager, MPV, Windstar, and for a little rear wheel drive the Astro. Allow open exhausts and strip the interior, a basic cage and that's it

It'd be like tree top tall Me-otters. I already have run with a Ford Ranger in SP, sort of like a mini NASCAR craftsman truck

James
[/b]

Once after an autocross, me and a dood who always whipped me raced our Astrovans - he whipped me in that too! - Gawd, what a nightmare that was! I can't imagine worse quality or worse dynamics than the Astro!