Value in creating a new heavily entry level / budget focused category?

[gran racing]

Would there be value in creating a new entry level category? This probably won’t be a very popular idea at first thought, but I am interested in doing a bit of further brainstorming about it. Others have also mentioned similar ideas. Give some thought to this a bit before jumping to your conclusions.

While I will bring the idea of IT becoming a national class, that really shouldn’t be the center of this discussion. That said, there has been much discussion about IT becoming a national class. I am confident this will increase the barriers to entry (even if just perceptions) and hurt the category’s status as “entry level”. Within our current structure, I am not in favor of this move. I then look at how it will impact ME, and really do not like the idea as things stand. At the same time, I have tried to open myself up and acknowledge the benefits for the club as a whole making IT a national class. It would also be possible for this new category / class structure to exist if IT stayed regional. These cars would run with their IT cousins’ run groups.

The idea of this new category would be to utilize a rule set blend between IT and showroom stock. Essentially it would be viewed as show room stock “older and cheaper” or IT-STOCK. Utilize the safety requirements of IT cars, stock engine, stock suspension, stock ECU, and a few bolt-on goodies. Also allow the gutting of the car’s interior as allowed with an IT car.

Cars would be classed with the weights they are in IT. I recognize that cars are classed as they would respond to a build in IT trim and some cars are better stock than others, but that couldn’t be a focus for this category.

The key to this would be to create enough disincentives for people to spend much money in the racecar and truly make this class budget friendly. What could be done to disincent people from spending much money in this category? I’m not entirely sure. A few things that come to mind include: no track records, no victory laps, truly recognizing this as an entry level / budget friendly category... Any other ideas? (I do not like the idea of claim rules.)

One argument I foresee hearing is “We do not need more race classes – we already have too many.” Maybe it is time to slowly eliminate a few of these classes even if through natural extinction? There is most definitely a place for an entry level category within the SCCA, whether it continue to be IT or a newly formed category.

Like I said, it has just been something I’ve been brainstorming about a bit and this just represents some of my initial thoughts.

[shwah]

The last thing the SCCA needs is more road racing classes. (as predicted by you - but oh so true!)

IT is a budget category.

Winner is not a budget class, regardless of the category.

If IT were to become national, why change regional? If national/regional distinction disappears, the point is moot.

[RSTPerformance]

Dave... get out the original IT rules and forget about all the "rules creep" over the past 20 years that has occured and you will get the class you are thinking of

Stop changing IT and keep it as an intro class and we would not need to worry about adding a new entry level class.

Raymond

[Knestis]

...The key to this would be to create enough disincentives for people to spend much money in the racecar and truly make this class budget friendly. ...[/b]

Sorry Dave (et al.) - your argument moves from an inaccurate presumption. The motivation to spend money does NOT come from the rules - it come from competition. Spec Miata rules are VERY restrictive but people still spend bundles on their cars. And on testing. And on tires. And DA. And coaching. And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.

Money gets spent because people WANT to spend it.

The kind-of-good news is that it's still possible in IT to out-race some of the out-spenders. We've been around and around this conversation since I joined SCCA and to this day, the ONLY solution to budget wars is a claim rule, which will never fly with this crowd.

And Raymond - do you seriously believe that a person couldn't spend $100K/year running a race car built to the 1983 ITCS? If their deep pockets allowed it and their competitive desires motivated them to do so?

K

EDIT - ...and this coming from a die-hard anti-creeper. I just don't buy that budgets and rules are correlated.

[924Guy]

...And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.
[/b]

Now THAT sounds like the best argument I've yet heard to take IT National!!!

[gran racing]

The motivation to spend money does NOT come from the rules - it come from competition. [/b]

I agree with what you're saying, but do think there are things that can be done to deter this that are dictated by the category. Maybe that's as little as not making it very prestigeous to win. It's just something I've been giving some thought to.

[zracre]

Kirk, I agree partially...rules and budget do go together....the more restrictive the rules the more expensive the trophy. Spec miata is a prime example and a model of what would happen if IT went national. It would be great for the club as boatloads of money would be spent and lots of bling would be in the paddock...but they would be taking us little guys that substitute race tires for meals and putting us at the back (or middle) of the pack. IT is very popular. Add national status and watch the calamity! We just saw it with SM so expect the same routine. 20 years from now we will be calling IT the same way we are calling Prod today. IT would be fun as a national class if we could keep the players and add new ones but it does not work that way. Everyone is not rich. Most run IT for fun.

Sorry Dave (et al.) - your argument moves from an inaccurate presumption. The motivation to spend money does NOT come from the rules - it come from competition. Spec Miata rules are VERY restrictive but people still spend bundles on their cars. And on testing. And on tires. And DA. And coaching. And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.

Money gets spent because people WANT to spend it.

The kind-of-good news is that it's still possible in IT to out-race some of the out-spenders. We've been around and around this conversation since I joined SCCA and to this day, the ONLY solution to budget wars is a claim rule, which will never fly with this crowd.

And Raymond - do you seriously believe that a person couldn't spend $100K/year running a race car built to the 1983 ITCS? If their deep pockets allowed it and their competitive desires motivated them to do so?

K

EDIT - ...and this coming from a die-hard anti-creeper. I just don't buy that budgets and rules are correlated.
[/b]

[JoshS]

Most run IT for fun.[/b]

And you think most club racers in other classes/categories do it for some other reason?

We all club race for fun, especially those who run regionals ... especially those who run regionals when the class is eligible for nationals.

[dick elliott]

Nick Craw did just that in the late 80's with one of the Long Beach Toyota. Payed 25 big ones to run in a upstart IT class. There will ALWAYS be a Nick with money to burn.


"And Raymond - do you seriously believe that a person couldn't spend $100K/year running a race car built to the 1983 ITCS? If their deep pockets allowed it and their competitive desires motivated them to do so?"

[Despr8dave]

Am I missing something here? I started racing IT in 1991. I thought my ITC 510 was pretty entry budget level......a whole lot less expensive than my full race mini-stock. An engine rebuild cost less than the machine work on a 2300 Ford. I thought that was the sole purpose of IT. Of course we ran against the guys who built IT cars for a living and eventually ended up in Trans Am....But most of us ran cars that were basically stripped out street cars with roll cages and suspension up grades. In those days we had to keep the damn headliner and passenger seats in. I paid $2200 for the complete race prepared car, a complete running parts car and a trailor full of parts from five other 510s!! (1991 dollars and frugal owner). Now that the IRS, ex wife, car and various other expences are over, I'm dieing to get my ole fat rear back in a race car. But heck, I can buy a very used GTO class late model stock car with full tube chassis for what I'm seeing a used IT car for. I really like that 500+hp and full race "slick" gumballs I can buy for $110 each, fiberglass bodies etc. I will never be competitive against the money boys, but I'll be going so fast I could care less. I never finished higher than second in IT, ususally ran mid pack anyway. I've been fortunate enough to get to race a GTO car and it was quiet the experience. No offense, but if you want to go national, change classes. Keep (or get back to) what IT was started for. JMHO

David
ITC 510
USST Chevy Silverado GTO

[bhudson]

Perhaps we're longing for the "good old days" of IT when the class was first formed. A few big spenders had max-to-the-rules cars, some (including me) had marginally prepared cars, and most were somewhere in between but tended to gravitate toward the front end of the grid over the years. Practically every category in club racing has experienced this.

The truth is, the category has grown, and there is a certain amount of "me too" when it comes to the latest development, running the test day at every event, buying new tires more often, etc.

I believe it's still possible to have fun in IT with a "less than maximum" car. There's just fewer people who want to run at that level than in the past.

[JLawton]

How about running a spec crappy tire and limit the width? Your grip and power will be limited to what those tires can take. No sense running a $5K suspension and a $10K engine..........


I'm with you on this one Dave. I wish I could spend a whole lot less and be at the pointy end (or at least SEE the pointy end!! ) I don't think there is a good answer though......

You can always go down to the indoor kart track??

[RSTPerformance]

How about running a spec crappy tire and limit the width? Your grip and power will be limited to what those tires can take. No sense running a $5K suspension and a $10K engine..........
[/b]

Good idea!!! lol

Anything with cords showing works for me... Although I would have to be careful not to steel all my street tires away

I wish I could spend a whole lot less and be at the pointy end (or at least SEE the pointy end!! ) I don't think there is a good answer though......

[/b]

You could have stayed in "B" but you new even with the small dollars you couldn't get to the front

[gran racing]

I went to the indoor kart track and got my butt kicked by some kid. Then again, it made me feel better to see Jake Gulick get beat by my wife.

My concern isn't about right now, but more in line of what the future will bring us and trying to be proactive about that. Currently, I am very happy with the state of IT. I've given tought about IT going national and the ramifications (good & bad) that would have for the club as a whole. I have wondered if I was able to put how that would impact me personally aside, having IT become a national category might really help our club. Here I said it wasn't about a pro/con of IT going national or not? LOL I'm a bit nervous about what road IT will go even if it is for the better of the club. Maybe that's a bit selfish, but then again it is our club too. I should stop thinking about this stuff before my brain implodes. It's time to think about easier stuff like planning ways I might be able to beat Ray at Ohio.

[gsbaker]

How about running a spec crappy tire and limit the width? Your grip and power will be limited to what those tires can take. No sense running a $5K suspension and a $10K engine...[/b]

A local circle track group has a class called "Strictly Stock", and they mean it. Street tires and no mods except for mandated removal of all glass. Guys will drive a beater to the track, take a hammer to the windows, don a helmet and they are good to go.

[ggnagy]

Hmmmm... original idea seems alot like the WDCR SRX7 rules. Only difference is, start with SS rules, add "trunk kit" and rip out interior. One of the best cars in the class can't sell for 5k here. Spec out an equivalant "trunk kit" for a bunch of other ITA/ITB cars to start and there ya go.

[Joe Harlan]

Whats funny is IT came from wanting a place to race outdated SS type cars, IT is a entry level catagory as long as we don't let rules divide the bottom from the top by too much. I don't think you will ever stop 100k from being spent on any car if the money is there. But our rules should make 100k effort unique rather than required. A proper rules set would say spend all the money you want but at some point there is no return on investment. If a fully developed ITScar takes 30k to build then a 100k effort should not make it necessarily any better if the rules are written right.

Our system should also include that when you are done in IT and you want to spend more money and go faster that there is another set of classes to move to rather than constantly changing the rules here to move the performance window up a level.

[Despr8dave]

Whats funny is IT came from wanting a place to race outdated SS type cars, IT is a entry level catagory as long as we don't let rules divide the bottom from the top by too much. I don't think you will ever stop 100k from being spent on any car if the money is there. But our rules should make 100k effort unique rather than required. A proper rules set would say spend all the money you want but at some point there is no return on investment. If a fully developed ITScar takes 30k to build then a 100k effort should not make it necessarily any better if the rules are written right.

Our system should also include that when you are done in IT and you want to spend more money and go faster that there is another set of classes to move to rather than constantly changing the rules here to move the performance window up a level.
[/b]

yeah, what Joe said!

[RSTPerformance]

I went to the indoor kart track and got my butt kicked by some kid. Then again, it made me feel better to see Jake Gulick get beat by my wife.

It's time to think about easier stuff like planning ways I might be able to beat Ray at Ohio.
[/b]

lol about Jake... As for the other comment... don't waste your time on Ohio...

yeah, what Joe said!
[/b]

Raymond

[gran racing]

As for the other comment... don't waste your time on Ohio..[/b]

You're absolutely right, it's a shoe in. Onto thinking about how I can beat the other ITB drivers attending the event.