August Fastrack out!

[Bill Miller]

It means air measuring device. The rule means definition #1. The throttle would, I suppose, fit definition #2. From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: me·ter
Function: transitive verb
1 : to measure by means of a meter
2 : to supply in a measured or regulated amount
3 : to print postal indicia on by means of a postage meter
[/b]

Well, a CIS flapper is a fuel metering device. And since they so nicely include metering devices in the definition of sensors, and other sensors can be replaced with equivalent (which I would take to mean 'performs the same function&#39, I guess you can replace the CIS flapper w/ some other type of fuel metering device.

[lateapex911]

. I also honestly believe if people here who feel this is a dumas idea provide real reasons why that's the case (and not just how it impacts you personally), it will also be listened to. [/b]

Thats what I've been saying! But I keep hearing crickets....

[Joe Harlan]

Well, a CIS flapper is a fuel metering device. And since they so nicely include metering devices in the definition of sensors, and other sensors can be replaced with equivalent (which I would take to mean 'performs the same function&#39, I guess you can replace the CIS flapper w/ some other type of fuel metering device.
[/b]

Dave, The arguments have been presented for almost a year now. Some of us are just tired. This rule only effects me in that I will make a lot of money from it. (yet I choose to fight against it) Once you take the proceeds from your book and you buy a pro motor with a full Sequential direct injection 3d EFI system and your making more HP than your car was ever considered to make in the current process. You can then tell me it was a fair and good idea that won't hurt the entry level status of the classes we are effecting. The ITAC and the CRB had a chance to do the right thing and stuff the genie back in the bottle where it should be but instead went ahead and dumped the whole can-o-worms on the table.

Jake the only reason you hear crickets is cause you don't want to listen to anyone with a different opinion than yours.

[solo914]

Hey guys,
I have been on this board lurking for a few years but just recently made the jump into ITA with a Miata. I have been a Solo competitor for 9 years and over that time had many great conversations about ECUs with Solo BOD, SAC(Stock AC) and STAC(Street Touring AC). members. I have heard them mention many of same arguments that I have heard hear that are for and against opening up ECUs and recently they have been making a huge push to determine how the want to shape the ECU rules in all of their classes. The single biggest issue that I have heard mentioned by them and not on this board is POLICING.

Even if I did agree that the rules should have left the ECU as completely STOCK I can see now that there are cars being manufactured today that allow you to make all the adjustments you want to the STOCK ecu, very cheaply without any visable/physical change. We are talking about hidden maps within the stock ecu. Policing this would be a nightmare.

I see the current rule as a compromise where they are basically saying "Hey, we know that it is possible for you guys to do this without us knowing, so go ahead and do it, but keep it in the stock box)

I don't see the new rule proposal as rule creep as people are already taking advantage of fully programmable or semi-programmable ecus. Heck, there is someone on this board who looks to have spent thousands and thousands working to manufacture a fully programmable ecu that fits in the stock box of a ITA RX-7. I believe the cost of his kit was going to be north of $1500 which is right in the ballpark of most aftermarket EFI kits.

As for the argument about people spending the $$$ on a complete MOTEC system and gains you can get with area under the curve. Lets not forget that we are talking about semi-stock engines and cars where you cannout mess to much with compression, porting, cams, cam timing etc. If there were any gains at all between MOTEC and any other aftermarket ECU on an IT car it is going to be less then .5%. MOTEC shines as an all inclusive system where you are using it for all your functions: fuel, spark, timing, data acquisition/telemetry, lap timing etc.

Just a humble observation coming from a new competitor.

Kyle

[JeffYoung]

Kyle, good post.

[lateapex911]

Hey guys,
I have been on this board lurking for a few years but just recently made the jump into ITA with a Miata......

I don't see the new rule proposal as rule creep as people are already taking advantage of fully programmable or semi-programmable ecus. Heck, there is someone on this board who looks to have spent thousands and thousands working to manufacture a fully programmable ecu that fits in the stock box of a ITA RX-7. I believe the cost of his kit was going to be north of $1500 which is right in the ballpark of most aftermarket EFI kits.



Just a humble observation coming from a new competitor.

Kyle [/b]

Kyle welcome to the fray, LOL. Good points. One item though...my ITA RX-7 has NO computer. Adding a stopwatch adds infinite computaional power, LOL. I think the item you are referring to is for the 2nd Gen ITS car, and IIRC it's going to sell in the $500 range. It's a great option for those cars, and will make life a lot easier for anyone who takes advantage of it. Sounds like a smoking deal to me.

.... Once you take the proceeds from your book and you buy a pro motor with a full Sequential direct injection 3d EFI system and your making more HP than your car was ever considered to make in the current process. [/b]

Joe, exactly how will Dave go to a direct injection system and remain legal. Please illustrate the method that can be exploited to attain that system that the rules allow. Just curious.

(My understanding of the term direct injection is the industry standard, (Currently being used on certain Audis, etc) I believe, where the injectors fire directly into the combustion chamber, at significantly higher pressure than a conventional injection system which injects into the intake runner, upstream of the valves, and I assume definition is the same.)

[Eagle7]

.... Heck, there is someone on this board who looks to have spent thousands and thousands working to manufacture a fully programmable ecu that fits in the stock box of a ITA RX-7. I believe the cost of his kit was going to be north of $1500 which is right in the ballpark of most aftermarket EFI kits.... [/b]

Thousands and thousands? Pure speculation.

ITA RX-7s don't have an ECU. ITS RX-7s do.

You're off by a factor of 3 - $500 cost.

But the point is that it would be cheaper yet without the stock box requirement.

[solo914]

Kyle welcome to the fray, LOL. Good points. One item though...my ITA RX-7 has NO computer. Adding a stopwatch adds infinite computaional power, LOL. I think the item you are referring to is for the 2nd Gen ITS car, and IIRC it's going to sell in the $500 range. It's a great option for those cars, and will make life a lot easier for anyone who takes advantage of it. Sounds like a smoking deal to me.
[/b]

Stopwatch, LOL! You are right, ITS RX-7, I knew that. Its pretty amazing that our cell phones today have more computing power then the cars of 10 years ago, heck, some phones have more then then cars of 5 years ago. I also knew there was an ECU being worked on in the $500 range, but I thought there was a more expensive one available right now. You are right though, it is going to be a great option with or without the new rule.

thanks for the welcome!

[Knestis]

...This rule doesn't "fix" anything. All it does is make it cost $4-5k more to maintain the status quo. ...[/b]

...which is great, because it would cost twice that to accomplish the same thing right now. And it CAN be accomplished under the current rule.

Do you NOT believe that it is possible to engineer ultra-adjustable Motec into some IT cars?

Or do you just think that because it's massively expensive right now, it's effectively prohibited?

Or is it just that you think nobody in your class/pond is doing it and want to keep it that way?

Kirk (who's still waiting for someone to explain what huge advantage the new rule provides that the current one does not)

[solo914]

Thousands and thousands? Pure speculation.

ITA RX-7s don't have an ECU. ITS RX-7s do.

But the point is that it would be cheaper yet without the stock box requirement.
[/b]

Yep, you are right, I really don't know what he spent. I do know that I have done a bunch of research for the 1.6 Miata ECU(Very very similar) and if I didn't do the work myself or have friend do the work at a discount it would probably be up in that range.


Kyle

[Eagle7]

Kirk (who's still waiting for someone to explain what huge advantage the new rule provides that the current one does not)
[/b]

That rotting engine harness goes in the trash?

[Joe Harlan]

Kyle welcome to the fray, LOL. Good points. One item though...my ITA RX-7 has NO computer. Adding a stopwatch adds infinite computaional power, LOL. I think the item you are referring to is for the 2nd Gen ITS car, and IIRC it's going to sell in the $500 range. It's a great option for those cars, and will make life a lot easier for anyone who takes advantage of it. Sounds like a smoking deal to me.
Joe, exactly how will Dave go to a direct injection system and remain legal. Please illustrate the method that can be exploited to attain that system that the rules allow. Just curious.

(My understanding of the term direct injection is the industry standard, (Currently being used on certain Audis, etc) I believe, where the injectors fire directly into the combustion chamber, at significantly higher pressure than a conventional injection system which injects into the intake runner, upstream of the valves, and I assume definition is the same.)
[/b]

Jake you know exactly what I am talking about so don't play games. sequential port FI and now he has full 3d timing and ignition maps to work with. Truct me there will be big gains in the PGM controlled car he is driving. You need to just step back jake and listen to others rather than trying to shout them down all the time. As far as you and your industry understanding you should stick to an industry you understand.

[RSTPerformance]

With this new rule, where is the limit? What would prevent somone from having a digital laptop type dashboard where they can adjust things while driving, sorta like the indy cars? It still just doesn't make sence that this entire thing can be left completely open to basically allow us to do whatever we want.

I am not going to pretend to have any knowledge in this area so I can't give you any technical data to tell you why I don't like the rule change. All I can say is I am afraid of what it opens up people to be able to do. The rule is scary IMO because it offers ZERO limitation. The justification people have is that it will cost people less to achive the same thing they are doing now... but what else will it allow them to do?

This all sort of reminds me of the remote resevoire shocks/struts... why were those allowed and then soon after removed from the rulebook? Remote resevoires don't do anything different than a traditional type super expensive shock/strut to they?

Instead of proving why we don't want the rule change can someone give the reason that we need to make the rule change, if as you claim it doesn't change anything?


Raymond

[Eagle7]

Jake you know exactly what I am talking about so don't play games. sequential port FI and now he has full 3d timing and ignition maps to work with. [/b]

Nice sidestep on the direct injection thing. <_<

Joe, I asked this the last time we were kicking this around and didn&#39;t get an answer. Please explain how sequential injection gives a major HP increase when the injectors are open 80% of the time. Not much time for sequencing there.

Question - what is a 3d timing map? Is it more than advance entries in a load vs RPM table? Another variable?

With this new rule, where is the limit? What would prevent somone from having a digital laptop type dashboard where they can adjust things while driving, sorta like the indy cars? [/b]

What would they adjust? The only thing I can think of is mixture, and the only reason I can see is to try to cut power to save fuel.

[planet6racing]

Raymond and Joe:

This has been asked by many, but I&#39;ll try to do it calmly:

What stops anyone from doing any of the things you have pointed out from doing so now?

Example: My Saturn. I could spend the money to shoe horn an ECU into the factory box. A MOTEC will fit. Creating the adaptor to go from the stock wiring plug to the MOTEC is actually fairly easy (just need a donor stock computer). Then Dyno time (yeah, like there is anyone else with a baseline MOTEC program for a Saturn!), at least 1 engine (though I&#39;m a test engineer, the limits do need to be explored), and other assorted stuff. All told, it will probably cost about $10K to put a MOTEC in the car, under the current rules.

Under the new rules, things can change a little bit. I can now run a megasquirt n spark (it wouldn&#39;t fit into the stock housing before. Believe me, I looked, modeled it in CAD, tried using a shoehorn...) and can get a baseline Saturn program that will at least make the engine run. Combine that with a DAQ system, and I can now adjust the fuel mixture on the track/street (I&#39;d mount it all in my daily driver to see if it works). Sure, I will probably spend some money on the Dyno, but I will have a good baseline to start with. Based on my estimates, this will reduce the cost of the ECU by at least 50% (not including DAQ, which I&#39;m going to ask Santa for this year), leaving me extra money for a Skip Barber school (which will probably improve my times more than the damn computer).

There are no flash programmers for a Saturn. There are no performance chips for a Saturn. Saturn has not and will not release the encryption codes for the computers. Am I complaining? No. It&#39;s my fault for not understanding this better when I built the car. Would I like the new rule to go through? You betcha! But, if it doesn&#39;t, oh well. It&#39;s not going to change where I finish.

Anyway, that&#39;s my $0.02. Please answer the first question.

[ddewhurst]

***Jake the only reason you hear crickets is cause you don&#39;t want to listen to anyone with a different opinion than yours.***

Now, that ^ for sure is not an original thought.

Jake, there are a couple more folks seeing black helicopters over head.

The BEST thing about this thread is that it has brug some people out of the woodwork.

[bldn10]

So, w/ this new rule can I make a mount for the stand-alone ECU that extends through the floorpan so I can jack my car up off it?

[lateapex911]

Here&#39;s the thing Joe, I&#39;m willing to listen, but I expect intelligent and specific answers, not misused tech talk with little factual basis.

Your "You know what I mean" comment is classic. Yes, I know what you mean...direct injection is direct injection. You used words, I understand them, therefor, THATS what you mean.

from Wikipedia:
Gasoline direct injection or GDi is a variant of fuel injection employed in modern two-stroke and four stroke petrol engines. The gasoline is injected directly into the combustion chamber of each cylinder, as opposed to conventional multi point fuel injection that happens in the intake valve, or cylinder port injection in two-strokes, and utilizes a high pressure single-piston injection pump and common rail fuel line.


If thats NOT what you meant, then WHY did you use it???? It only serves to confuse, or to mislead.

Then you tell me to stick to an industry that I have knowledge of??? Well, sir, if YOUR knowledge of your industry is defined by your use of the direct injection term above, then i wouldn&#39;t throw stones, if I were you.

Stick to real facts, and your case is stronger than a bunch of "Trust me on this"s, and incorrect terminology.

[Joe Harlan]

Raymond and Joe:

This has been asked by many, but I&#39;ll try to do it calmly:

What stops anyone from doing any of the things you have pointed out from doing so now?

Example: My Saturn. I could spend the money to shoe horn an ECU into the factory box. A MOTEC will fit. Creating the adaptor to go from the stock wiring plug to the MOTEC is actually fairly easy (just need a donor stock computer). Then Dyno time (yeah, like there is anyone else with a baseline MOTEC program for a Saturn!), at least 1 engine (though I&#39;m a test engineer, the limits do need to be explored), and other assorted stuff. All told, it will probably cost about $10K to put a MOTEC in the car, under the current rules.

Under the new rules, things can change a little bit. I can now run a megasquirt n spark (it wouldn&#39;t fit into the stock housing before. Believe me, I looked, modeled it in CAD, tried using a shoehorn...) and can get a baseline Saturn program that will at least make the engine run. Combine that with a DAQ system, and I can now adjust the fuel mixture on the track/street (I&#39;d mount it all in my daily driver to see if it works). Sure, I will probably spend some money on the Dyno, but I will have a good baseline to start with. Based on my estimates, this will reduce the cost of the ECU by at least 50% (not including DAQ, which I&#39;m going to ask Santa for this year), leaving me extra money for a Skip Barber school (which will probably improve my times more than the damn computer).

There are no flash programmers for a Saturn. There are no performance chips for a Saturn. Saturn has not and will not release the encryption codes for the computers. Am I complaining? No. It&#39;s my fault for not understanding this better when I built the car. Would I like the new rule to go through? You betcha! But, if it doesn&#39;t, oh well. It&#39;s not going to change where I finish.

Anyway, that&#39;s my $0.02. Please answer the first question.
[/b]

Bill Last time I answer this. It is not about now or then. The issue is the rule should have been changed back to stock flashed boards and chips.

Marty, No side step there. Jake just tried to dick with a bad choice of words. As far as sequential V batch firing, the gains come from being able to tune each cylinder individually You are able to directly control each injection and its opening and closing points. we have seen small gains in peak but the big gains are in torque and average HP across the middle.

[planet6racing]

***Jake the only reason you hear crickets is cause you don&#39;t want to listen to anyone with a different opinion than yours.***

Now, that ^ for sure is not an original thought.

[/b]

Kettle: "Hello, Pot?"

Pot: "This is Pot"

Kettle: "You&#39;re Black!!! <click>"