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Thread: Split Starts

  1. #21
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    The MARRS ITC split starts were an outgrowth of our previous marriage to class of spec cars. I'm not naming names, but it's got a rotary engine.

    They were fast in a straight line. They were slow in the corners. Some of the mid-pack drivers used poor judgement and when spoken to regarding pounding ITC cars were dismissive using the "spec classes need to bump" point of view. If they jumped the start or got a jump on you at the start, you never were going to get past them unless they went off or hit someone (and then you only got past them if they didn't collect you on their way to a DNF). The stewards were uninterested in "counseling" the offenders. In short, it was making lemonade 'cause all we got was lemons.

    Re: ITC pole sitter jumping the start - possible, but I haven't seen the ITC pole sitter do this. I've relied on the second row to speak up if this happened and I haven't heard a peep. If it happens, that'll be the end of the arrangement. My understanding is that the ITC "go" point is when the pole sitter hits the end of the pit wall. The hand out the window is just a signal. For the most part, the 10-12 cars in ITC tend to have good formations and you pretty much can tell when it is time to go.



  2. #22
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    I am fully aware of the history behind the "split grid." But it's just that - history. Why are we still paying for a group that was poorly matced. (And "poorly matched" mainly because of the different handling characteristics of the classes. Sp7 had as much right to their racing habits as we do ours. You just need to learn to deal with it.)

    And be informed, I was not suggesting anyone had jumped any starts. I was suggesting that the opportunity to misuse the advantage was available, and because the polesitter is given so much control of our starts, he or she inherits an advantage. There's a big difference. Starters with big green flags are supposed to start races, not the lead competitor - The polesitter already determines the speed for the start, let's not add to that with allowing him/her to determine when we can press our go pedals.
    And unfortunately if I'm on the third or fourth or more rearward row my x-ray vision has not fully developed to the degree that I can see at ground level when the polesitter has reached the end of the pit out wall. I'm glad you are equipped with that kind of super sight.

    G
    G Jones
    ITC Fiesta
    MARRS 22

  3. #23
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    Ahhhh, but we don't do mixed-class groups because we want to do it. We do it because time constraints force us to do it. In a perfect world, we'd all be putting 50 cars in a single class out there for every group and class.[/b]
    Oh, no question - but don't get me started. That's a whole 'nother thread about how we should really only have 1/3 of the classes we do in Club Racing.

    Coping skills don't help you when people in the other class either see the red mist for the first two laps or when they have the philosophy "I'm in a spec class. You've got to bump to get past someone."[/b]
    There you go - the problem is always "the other class." Red mist and bumping are separate issues, that should be dealt with separately. Creating a procedural rule to enable butthole behaviors isn't solving the problem. Now, if a class in a group decides that they want to separate themselves from the pack, and the stewards are OK with it, I'll grant you that's a little different story. But only a little.

    Some might take this view, but when the leaders of the faster class are set to lap me, I consider whether the chances of me passing the car in front of me are high enough to screw up their race. ...[/b]
    With respect, lapping is an entirely different thing than being forced to pass a slower car because it's in a class that got put in the front pack of a split start. That's essentially racing for position - recognizing of course that we aren't supposed to race out-of-class (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

    Hmmm, usually the issue is between fast in a straight line versus fast in the twisty bits. If the latter is holding the former up, it's called blocking. If its the former holding up the latter, it's called not knowing how to drive.[/b]
    So because a Miata, by its layout, weight, drivetrain, etc., is faster in corners than, say, a Nissan Sentra SE-R, the guy behind the wheel is automagically a better driver? You don't think that having to pass that same Miata that's marginally slower on the straight doesn't cost the Sentra driver some time - pulling off-line to get the pass done just before or under braking, sacrificing apex and exit speed to do so? You're making value judgements based on where cars have relative advantages, and essentially suggesting that the fast-in-a-straight-line cars are being piloted by people with less talent than the fast-in-a-corner cars. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm GUESSING you consider yourself to be in the latter group, eh?

    K

  4. #24
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    First if we are qualifying as a mixed group, in our case ITB and C, we should race as a group with cars gridded by qualifying times as God meant for road racing to start. If you are faster than a higher classed car and you out qualify him, for the most part you are rid of him at the start and don't need to deal with him later in the race (usually in the middle of a dice with someone in your own class.)
    [/b]
    not my experience at all. if you are faster than a higher classed car odds are he's got motor on you, will go by at the start, and phuck everything up in T1.

    Second, the split grid business gives the C polesitter a definite advantage because he or she is the only driver who can see the start marker (i.e., the end of the pit out wall) so he or she inherits a jump simply by the set up. He or she can easily accelerate and then wave his or her hand so the rest of us get to go and of course only the car directly beside or behind the polesitter can see the hand wave. That's why they put the starter stand in the air - so more drivers can see the race start and accelerate together (as God meant for road races to start.)
    [/b]
    am i the only one that doesn't see anything wrong with the guy on POLE having an advantage?

    And regardless, the B drivers in MARRS are as good as any, fun to race with and most of the time show excellent judgement. I personnally enjoy being mixed with them, and really don't like the extraordinary measures imposed on our group. It's not road racing as I've known it for 30 years, and I would add that if drivers don't like mixed traffic perhaps they should try Solo 1.
    [/b]
    rediculous statement. if ITS/ITR cars park it in the corners and totally killing my momentum i'm left with no good option. i can either make a bonzai braking attempt, slow down and cost myself huge amounts of time, or i can keep it to the wood and give them a little tap on the rear bumper to let them know 'hey buddy, you're really phucking me back here!" which costs me less time.

    i typically choose the latter, which nobody likes, but unfortunately is the best option i have.

    why does Grand-Am do split starts for DP/GT?
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  5. #25
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    why does Grand-Am do split starts for DP/GT?
    [/quote]

    Probably to define the classes for the spectators, attempt to eliminate differences in performance for a few laps, improve the racing, and then, there's that safety thing.

    No, you are not the only one that think it's okay for the pole sitter to have just a little advantage. However, if it's deemed by the stewards that the pole sitter is gaining a huge, unfair advantage, then they need to change their methods of granting a start. Race starts at the green flag, not the last turn before the straight. If the green is already displayed when the pole sitter gets to the appropriate start location, then screw it! I'd defy any steward to come down on me...unless it was absolutely and specifically spelled out in the supps.
    Chris Harris
    ITC Honda Civic

  6. #26
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    I am fully aware of the history behind the "split grid." But it's just that - history. Why are we still paying for a group that was poorly matced. (And "poorly matched" mainly because of the different handling characteristics of the classes. Sp7 had as much right to their racing habits as we do ours. You just need to learn to deal with it.) [/b]
    1. With all due respect, no driver needs or should have to "deal" with drivers who think that running into their competitors is either permitted or par for the course. Nor do rights extend to failing to lock down a car when it is out of control. There also are the issues of courtesy and common sense - if a car in a different class has caught you (as in a generic "you" and not a specific "you") and is all over your tail end in the twistys (or actually passes you in the twistys) and then you (again, generic) use straight line speed to get past him, common courtesy suggests that you get out of his way and let him go. Common sense suggests that you get out of his bloody way and let him go because he's obviously faster in the sections that require skill and there are things to be learned by following him. Common sense also suggests that you (again generic) will be faster if you aren't fighting to keep him behind.

    Perhaps I have the wrong view of these things, but there were drivers in my own class that I let by in the early stages of the race simply because I knew I wouldn't be able to keep them behind me for the entire race and by letting them through, I could go to school.

    2. I did not mean to imply that you had suggested anyone had jumped. The polesitter does not determine when we accelerate by dropping their hand - we go when the end of the pit wall is reached by the polesitter. As for X-ray vision - I suppose that would be useful but it is not required. Simply knowing where you are on the front straight and your approximate distance behind the polesitter should provide sufficient information. Similarly, one is far more likely to see the pole sitter and the pit wall sitting in the fourth row then one is to see the green flag waved sitting in the 12th row.

    I for one would prefer that we receive our "own" green flag. The stewards, however, will not do that, nor, to the best of my knowledge, have given reasons why they will not. Perhaps someone should ask them the reasons for their opposition at the open competition meeting. My sense is that the answer will be a long winded version of "because."

  7. #27
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    There you go - the problem is always "the other class."[/b]
    Well... yes. For the most part interference is caused when the faster cars in the slower class get mixed in with the slower cars of the faster class - or to be more specific, when the faster slower class cars get mixed in with the middle of the faster class car. (Reason - most of the slower faster cars KNOW they are slow or are mechanicals and get out of the way. The middle of the faster class tends to be guys who THINK they are fast... but if they are so darn fast... how come a slower car is hanging with them?)

    Sometimes the problem goes both ways, but my experience is that it generally is caused by a small set of one of the classes in a two-class group.

    Red mist and bumping are separate issues, that should be dealt with separately. Creating a procedural rule to enable butthole behaviors isn't solving the problem.[/b]
    Agree. It doesn't solve the problem. It deals with it. Solving the problem requires stewards that act on their own or a combination of drivers willing to protest and stewards unwilling to write most everything off as a racing incident. Stewards don't want to act because then they are the blackhats. Drivers don;t want to protest because then they are the blackhats. Splitting the sheep and the cattle avoids the problem.

    So because a Miata, by its layout, weight, drivetrain, etc., is faster in corners than, say, a Nissan Sentra SE-R, the guy behind the wheel is automagically a better driver?[/b]
    Well, I find that being in a Miata automagically causes you to lose good judgement . The comparison isn't appropriate because those two cars are in the same class according to the GCR. If we're talking about a Miata ITA) and an ITR Integera, yeah, I'd say the Miata driver is a better driver. I've seen ITC cars hit healthy ITS cars in the back under acceleration... the C driver shouldn't do that but, then again, he should be ABLE to do that.

    You're making value judgements based on where cars have relative advantages, and essentially suggesting that the fast-in-a-straight-line cars are being piloted by people with less talent than the fast-in-a-corner cars. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm GUESSING you consider yourself to be in the latter group, eh?[/b]
    No value judgement on where cars have relative advantages. A value judgment on whether a healthy ITS or ITR car should be getting in the way of an ITB or ITC car. And no, I don't consider myself in the latter group - I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve.

  8. #28
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    1. And with respect to you Jeff, but I'm not sure you were interested in "getting out of my way" on the start at MARRS 4- you and the blue car were certainly squeezed together pretty tightly in an effort to keep me behind; however, that's another story. I'm just thankful when cars in front of me hold their line instead of moving to block. After all we are out there to race. I really don't expect anyone to "move over"- just give me the chance to try an alternate line for the pass. I expect everyone to compete.

    2. If I could see when the polesitter is even with the wall, your rebuttal might hold water, but I disagree heartily - the flag up high is definitely easier to see even from the 12th row than the polesitter is in relation to some arbitrary point at ground level even from the 4th row.

    For you Travis, in my experience if my car out qualifies another car I'm usually faster everywhere (with of course exceptions) even on the start. And even if he wins the drag race, I will take him at T1 or thereabouts. Gee guys sometimes it sounds like you don't really want to race, you want to preset all contingencies and involve yourselves in a parade?!

    But perhaps we have bored our fellow readers long enough. I'm in favor of mixed class starts according to qualifying times; you are not. So be it.

    G
    G Jones
    ITC Fiesta
    MARRS 22

  9. #29
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    wait....

    each group involved in the split start doesn't get their own green flag? why the heck not? that's how we do it in MiDiv.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  10. #30
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    ***A value judgment on whether a healthy ITS or ITR car should be getting in the way of an ITB or ITC car.***

    This thread started with reference to ITS folks that don't have their stuff together YET. Maybe these folks started road racing in a class that far exceeds their begining skills, BUT they will get on with their skills & no longer be among the B cars. EVERYONE needs some time to gain skills.

    *** perhaps we have bored our fellow readers long enough. I'm in favor of mixed class starts according to qualifying times;***

    I'm in favor of what this person ^ said.

    Qualify, line em up & lets go racing. If there is a car in class or out of class whose car gets wider than normal while it should be following a classic line in several turns in a row have a talk with the driver ONCE.

    Have Fun ; )
    David Dewhurst
    CenDiv Milwaukee Region
    Spec Miata #14

  11. #31
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    Travis,
    The ITB/C Group in MARRS at Summit Point is using a "split grid" start, not a "split start".

    It's set up where the C polesitter must reach even with the end of the pit out wall before the C cars can accelerate. Yes, it's even worse than a split start, it's completely "stoopid".

    G
    G Jones
    ITC Fiesta
    MARRS 22

  12. #32
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    I've seen a "split grid" start only once, and it was at the ARRC. THE most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Most of the stewards hadn't heard of it and the Chief would listen to no opposing arguements, but did get very mad at the front row starters of the second group as they didn't do as the CS wanted...whatever that was...even though they did exactly as the were told on the grid. They were denied their victory lap, and had to come to the tower after the race where they were threatened with disqualification. Cooler minds ruled.

    That was the last year a split grid has been used, and it's been promised that it will never happen again.
    Chris Harris
    ITC Honda Civic

  13. #33
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    Travis,
    The ITB/C Group in MARRS at Summit Point is using a "split grid" start, not a "split start".

    It's set up where the C polesitter must reach even with the end of the pit out wall before the C cars can accelerate.
    [/b]
    well i agree then, that's just retarded.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  14. #34
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    I'm not going to get into a big long discussion on this, but there are 11-14 or us in ITC and 1 person has stood up, said they did not like it, but agreed to continue because the vote was against them. Most of us love the racing it has started. There are quite a few "spectators" that have said it has made for some awesome IN CLASS racing. We do have a split grid not split start. We all go when the front driver reaches the end of pit wall. It has worked for I beleive this is the 3rd year of it. We have fun and you have to have a specific group of people WILLING to make it work, which we have. I have definitly enjoyed the racing quite a bit more with this format for ITC. I could not see it working in most other classes.
    Spanky | #73 ITA 1990 Honda Civic WDCR SOLD | #73 ITA 1995 Honda Civic WDCR in progress |
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  15. #35
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    1. And with respect to you Jeff, but I'm not sure you were interested in "getting out of my way" on the start at MARRS 4- you and the blue car were certainly squeezed together pretty tightly in an effort to keep me behind; however, that's another story.[/b]
    Welllll, that's 'cause based on qualifying times, you would have fallen in the category of cars that go fast in a straight line .

    We moved to take away some of the middle, but the absence of scraps is evidence that we left just enough room for a VW. I just wanted to make you work for it.

    I knew you were going to try to come up the middle, so I moved that way immediately. There was a VW-sized space to the inside too. Having moved once at the start, I wasn't going to move in either direction to stop a move from behind me, though I would have moved if something opened up to my front. I could have squeezed tighter, but that's neither Kosher or what this is all about.


  16. #36
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    Welll OK guys if we're going to make this personal:

    Jeff, you didn't "leave just enough room" for anything, especially my Fiesta. You guys could have held hands going down the front straight. The only way I got any room was to do a little bump drafting on your buddy and a little bumper rubbing on your "borrowed" car. (If people are going to team up out there, one must take extra-measures to defend himself.) And guess what, when you move your car to keep someone from going by, you are BLOCKING and BLOCKING is not gentlemanly behavior.

    As far as my lap times, I believe the race times might indicate that occasionally I can get around a corner; at least I don't remember seeing you again after lap one.

    And Spanky most Germans right before WWII thought Nazism was OK too: sometimes the majority doesn't get it right; they just get it.

    See you guys in August.

    G
    G Jones
    ITC Fiesta
    MARRS 22

  17. #37
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    And guess what, when you move your car to keep someone from going by, you are BLOCKING and BLOCKING is not gentlemanly behavior.

    [/b]
    not true. one move to keep someone from going by is called defensive driving. more than one move between corners is called blocking.

    i have no idea what happened in this scenario...just pointing it out.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  18. #38
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    ...and picking a line - any line - and sticking to it is entirely within our rights.

    I'll let you all in on a secret: I'm pretty much going to put myself on the inside going into every corner on the first 1/2 lap or so, until the pack gets fully up to speed. I do this because it decreases the chance that someone will spin and take me off the outside or get clever ideas about filling a too-small hole and using my inside quarter as brakes. If you decide you are faster than me (in that corner or over the course of the race) you are going to have to find a way around the outside, regardless of what class you're in.

    Now, if that means that I'm going exactly the same speed as the guy in the next-most inside lane, we aren't blocking. We're just doing the same thing in different places.

    :P

    K

  19. #39
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    not true. one move to keep someone from going by is called defensive driving. more than one move between corners is called blocking.

    i have no idea what happened in this scenario...just pointing it out.
    [/b]
    Travis,
    That's pretty much accepted,, but in reality it's not always how many moves you make but when and where you make them. "Defensive driving" is taking a middle line instead of a classic line; it's not jumping over in front of someone just to keep him from going by, that's just plain "blocking". You may not get called in by the stewards for one such move but don't be surprised if you get poked in the rear by the guy trying to pass.

    G
    G Jones
    ITC Fiesta
    MARRS 22

  20. #40
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    Travis,
    That's pretty much accepted,, but in reality it's not always how many moves you make but when and where you make them. "Defensive driving" is taking a middle line instead of a classic line; it's not jumping over in front of someone just to keep him from going by, that's just plain "blocking". You may not get called in by the stewards for one such move but don't be surprised if you get poked in the rear by the guy trying to pass.

    G
    [/b]
    i can use as much of the track as i damn well please.

    like kirk....i'm on the inside as much as possible to start. if i'm on the outside at the green and I have an ITR/S/E car right next to me. you'd be a fool to think i'm doing anything other than IMMEDIATELY moving over into that spot he just vacated.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

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