Pig Roast Day 2

[Andy Bettencourt]

We are not going to "hash this out" here, because most of the people involved don't read this BB. 90% of them will be at the meeting, however.

I'm not saying you should be going to all the meetings, but it seems that you have a huge interest in this one topic, and as it will be talked about, you should express your views. If you don't want to go, then at least send an e-mail to Serge.

If you are unwilling to provide input that helps to solve a perceived problem then you shouldn't complain about the results.
[/b]

You miss the point. We hash it out here to determine if there 'needs' to be a change. There seemingly doesn't. The procedure is there, there was a mistake made, we move on. It happens. If the procedure WASN'T there, then 'we' do something - like come up with some ideas and attend a meeting. Seems like there is no need in this case.

I have interest in all of this stuff. Knowing how things run / are supposed to run / history of errors / corrective actions - make us all better racers and members.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Since I'm the "guy" on the front straight maybe I can fill you in on it from my perspective.

As you know, the transponder loop is in NASCAR turn 4, so the Starters (who are doing a lap chart for their own use) stop doing their chart on the very last lap and do a "Timing tape" of the order that the cars cross the Start/Finish line. Actually, we have three or for different people watching to make sure we don't miss anything. This is then passed to T/S and used to correct any changes due to passes that occurred between T/S and the S/F line.

We call the stewards in "Control" on our radio and report any passes that happen between the timing loop and S/F. That is exactly what I did in this case. We cannot call Timing directly because they are on a different radio network so we have to relay this information via the stewards. Normally it is "no changes" or occasionally one or two passes so it is easy to do.

After that, it is up to the stewards to pass the info to Timing, and it is up to timing to adjust the results on the computer to reflect reality. One of those two things failed to happen.

From memory (I don't have the paperwork here) it was 70, 55, 87, and 68. The cars may not have been on the same lap or in the same class, but we do not care, Timing knows that and gets it right (normally). 16 also got past 3, but it didn't impact the results. All the other cars crossed the S/F line in the same order they crossed the timing loop.

Please believe me in that this WILL be a serious topic for discussion at the next Regional Comp Board meeting which happens to be this Friday. Please attend if you want to say anything about this. (Or send an e-mail to Serge to express your opinion.) It's lucky that it is Friday as it is fresh in everyones mind. The same type of problem happened during the GT1 race on Saturday, but as I wasn't there, I cannot speak to what happened in that case. (I was actually in Timing working on a different computer problem for them during that race.)
[/b]

I also posted this on another thread - But I am curious about the answer.

Can I ask a stupid question?

If the T&S loop is located at Nascar T-4, isn't the race over at the loop regardless of where the Start/finish line is? What would happen if we had a photo finish? Wouldn't we rely on the loop? Seems like the loop should be at S/F and/or that start finish is meaningless without a T&S loop (or should I call it the control line).

[dominojd]

I also posted this on another thread - But I am curious about the answer.

Can I ask a stupid question?

If the T&S loop is located at Nascar T-4, isn't the race over at the loop regardless of where the Start/finish line is? What would happen if we had a photo finish? Wouldn't we rely on the loop? Seems like the loop should be at S/F and/or that start finish is meaningless without a T&S loop (or should I call it the control line).
[/b]

Unfortunately Pocono has the same problem. In thier case though it is after the finish line going into turn one. There was a fubar last year at pocono where I beat andy to the S/F line but he was ahead of me going over the loop in 1. The results showed andy ahead of me. We had to go to T/S and fix the problem. Don't question it it's just one of those things.

[RacerBill]

I also posted this on another thread - But I am curious about the answer.

Can I ask a stupid question?

If the T&S loop is located at Nascar T-4, isn't the race over at the loop regardless of where the Start/finish line is? What would happen if we had a photo finish? Wouldn't we rely on the loop? Seems like the loop should be at S/F and/or that start finish is meaningless without a T&S loop (or should I call it the control line).
[/b]

The answer is that the race is over whenever the rule book (GCR, whatever) says it's over. Bottom line, that is what counts! With all the sophistication of electronic timing and scoring, the hardware and software is developed by humans and subject to our ability to fail. Add to that, the unpredicatability of racing and what are you left with.

Let me relate a story from the 1992 Indianapolis 500. The month of May was very cold that year. The rule book stated that the race started when the pole car crossed the S/F line after the starter displayed the green flag at the end of the pace laps. The scoring program was written to start scoring the race at that point. Well, if you read the accounts of that race, the pole car spun its tires coming out of Turn Two and crashed into the infield wall on one of the pace laps, too damaged to continue. After several more pace laps, the race began. However, the car designated as the pole car was no longer there. As the rest of the field went screaming into the first turn, the scoring program sat there saying 'I waiting for the pole car, waiting for the pole car, waiting for the pole car......' This was also the first year we were feeding data direct to ABC so immediately about 7 million people knew we were having a problem. We had to get the source code, change it, recompile the program and rerun the event log, but we had the system caught up and correct in about ten laps.

Ask me about Dover, and I'll tell you what happens when a car crashes and stops right on top of a timing loop!

By the way, you are probably wondering why no one thought of the pole car crashing on the pace lap. Well, as long as racing is still going on, there are going to be situations that were not thought of. We try, but there will always be some new wrinkle to test the system.

[JLawton]

Anyone know what was going on with the pace car on Saturday's group 4 race?? I was in first gear for the start. By far, the slowest start I've ever been in!!

[dickita15]

I agree. I know it was not the regular driver. send a note to serge if you think it was a problem.

[RKramden]

If the T&S loop is located at Nascar T-4, isn't the race over at the loop regardless of where the Start/finish line is? What would happen if we had a photo finish? Wouldn't we rely on the loop? Seems like the loop should be at S/F and/or that start finish is meaningless without a T&S loop (or should I call it the control line).
[/b]

The race is over at the S/F line regardless of where the timing loop is located.

Photo finish? The starters and the stewards in the tower use any and all information to name the winner. If it is really too close to call, we would go with a dead heat, per the GCR.

The loop isn't accurate. Some transponders are better than others, some people mount them in different places, etc. I have seen some transponders that can be picked up when they are 15 feet from the loop, and some only when they are right over the loop. On more than one occasion I have seen two cars pass by in the order of "A then B", while the decoder gets them in the order of "B then A".

That is why NASCAR does a video of the S/F line, even when they mandate the exact location of the transponder. I would not doubt that NASCAR teams have a bunch of transponders and sort them looking for a "good" one (or good 10 or 20.)

I agree. I know it was not the regular driver. send a note to serge if you think it was a problem.
[/b]

Absolutely. since Serge was the driver........

[Tkczecheredflag]

Anyone know what was going on with the pace car on Saturday's group 4 race?? I was in first gear for the start. By far, the slowest start I've ever been in!!
[/b]

Jeff - For me it was "second gear, nope, not in the power band, first gear, nope, to much torque, second, nope, first, nope" - I was having trouble figuring out where to be on gear selection - Actually. I liked the slower pace - my 2 cents. It reminds me of an old joke - 3, 5 - 3, 5 - 3, 5 - anyone remember the joke?

The race is over at the S/F line regardless of where the timing loop is located.

Photo finish? The starters and the stewards in the tower use any and all information to name the winner. If it is really too close to call, we would go with a dead heat, per the GCR.

The loop isn't accurate. Some transponders are better than others, some people mount them in different places, etc. I have seen some transponders that can be picked up when they are 15 feet from the loop, and some only when they are right over the loop. On more than one occasion I have seen two cars pass by in the order of "A then B", while the decoder gets them in the order of "B then A".

That is why NASCAR does a video of the S/F line, even when they mandate the exact location of the transponder. I would not doubt that NASCAR teams have a bunch of transponders and sort them looking for a "good" one (or good 10 or 20.)
Absolutely. since Serge was the driver........
[/b]

I use the term photo finish loosely. This offers me a good explanation - Thanks much to all responses (RacerBill).

[Ed Funk]

I'm either not old enough to remember your joke, or too old!

[Tkczecheredflag]

I'm either not old enough to remember your joke, or too old!
[/b]

Ed - Found this on Google, although the site link didn't fire up.

Joke number 852 - from our huge joke database! ... He peeks around the corner of the garage and hears his son: Three, Five, Three, Five, Three, Five..." - There was innuendo to a male sexual past time in this joke if I remember correctly.

[benspeed]

BIG CONGRATS TO JOE!

Savor those first wins, bud - you worked your ass off for them. Now that you have the taste I bet you get more!!!

Cheers,

Ben

[RacerBill]

The loop isn't accurate. Some transponders are better than others, some people mount them in different places, etc. I have seen some transponders that can be picked up when they are 15 feet from the loop, and some only when they are right over the loop. On more than one occasion I have seen two cars pass by in the order of "A then B", while the decoder gets them in the order of "B then A".

[/b]

Actually, the loop is just a hunk of wire buried in the track with a receiver attached. The variables in the equasion are the transponders. Signal strength depends on the mounting location, and maybe the difference between a hard-wired transponder and a self-contained battery transponder (battery charge level?) . Back again to the 1992 Indy 500. Al Unser's car was a different chasis than most of the other cars and we could not get a good signal when located in the side pod as was customary at that time. So, his transponder was actually located in the nose of the car, a good two feet ahead of where the transponder was in Scott Goodyear's car. The margin of victory was calculated by measuring the distance between the cars (I believe the center of the front wheels was the standard) and calculating from the speed (there is a trap that measures speed at the start/finish line at IMS).

Anyway, you are right that the systems are not a precise as we would like them to be for scoring a competition between vehicles, but they are very precise at measuring the timing of successive passes of transponders. Thus, they are referred to by the manufacturer as 'timing systems'.

Sorry for the thread hijack. Probably should move further discussion to the 'General' forum.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Last weekend was one of ups and downs for me. On Saturday, I was able to qualify in 20th place out of 35 cars. Not good, but not terrible either. I am certainly still in the back of the ITS pack and I am one of this damn ITS drivers who is right in the front of the ITB field times. I was able to get a good start and start moving through the ITB cars to go play with the ITS cars. I was starting to gain and all of a sudden in turn 9 the car goes into immediate oversteer with no warning. What the hell was that. I assumed it was just me and kept driving. In the meantime, many of the ITB cars were able to get back past me. 2 laps later I passed Ritchie and Erik again and what happened? I spun in the exact same place for a second time and Ritchie just barely grazed my RR quarter panel with the cars first battle scar. After the race I popped the hood and there was oil everywhere! It was down the rocker panels and all the way to my back tires... What a mess, but it explained my spins. I finished in 19th place.

Sunday came and so did the rain. About 15 mins prior to the Qual it was drizzling, I decided to go out on drys, but to disconnect the swaybar in case it stays wet. The track was beginning to dry out by the end of the session, but as it dried out having no rear swaybar was horrible. The simply would not turn! All and all a pretty bad session and a starting place of 27th place. Ouch!

The skys were threatening, but the race stayed dry although the track was a mixed bag. There was a mostly dry line, but standing water in many places. I got another good start on the ITB cars and was back to once again having to work through traffic. On about the 4th lap I got the lovely sound warning, next lap another warning. Due to the cold and rainy conditions I was blowing more than 100db. Damn... I backed off the throttle and made it the race without being disqualified. I did manage to just ever so slightly tag Ritchie and his rear bumper came off. It must have been held on with zip ties or something. Managed to finish in 17th place.

In any event, here are my videos.

Race 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...739941677&hl=en
Race 2 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=29...185703137&hl=en

[JLawton]

Absolutely. since Serge was the driver........
[/b]

That's too funny. I'm glad he drives his Miata faster than that!!! :P



Come on you guys, no comments on Joe's video?????

[Tkczecheredflag]

That's too funny. I'm glad he drives his Miata faster than that!!! :P
Come on you guys, no comments on Joe's video?????
[/b]

Jeff - "Crazy Joe" - Doesn't that say it all about the video? My only comment (being right behind you during Joe's wall kiss) is why did you check up? - he opened the door for us and we didn't capitalize on it. Might it have soemthing to do with you guys sharing a room at the RFI? Just kidding - Great video Jeff. I am hoping to post Sat in car today on YouTube - Stay tuned it is electric.

[Beran]

Great video Jeff and Jeremy!
Thanks for sharing
I really like watching them.

I need to get a camera in my car.

[gran racing]

Come on you guys, no comments on Joe's video????? [/b]

Oh, I don't know. I didn't think what Joe did there was so crazy. I'm sure things looked much different inside the cars.

Now some of the other stuff we've seen him do...

[benspeed]

I've got some great Crazy Joe footage when he was running in ITS - coming out of Devils Elbow at Pocono he squeezed me against the wall during qualifying and left me maybe an inch between the wall and half an inch to his car - he was looking to put the block on me and then relented and gave room to pass - crazy, but a gentleman too. He held it that close for 200 yards easy until the turn came up - I was wondering if he was going to ride me on the wall all the way around the turn into the back straight!

Joe - remember that? You had a good laugh while I was looking at the side of my car to confirm no contact (and there was none)

[almracing]

It reminds me of an old joke - 3, 5 - 3, 5 - 3, 5 - anyone remember the joke?
[/b]

Tim,

Sadly, I heard you tell that joke to your crew on the Grid this Sunday. :P I guess everyone has their way of handling pre-track jitters... LOL.

[dominojd]

I've got some great Crazy Joe footage when he was running in ITS - coming out of Devils Elbow at Pocono he squeezed me against the wall during qualifying and left me maybe an inch between the wall and half an inch to his car - he was looking to put the block on me and then relented and gave room to pass - crazy, but a gentleman too. He held it that close for 200 yards easy until the turn came up - I was wondering if he was going to ride me on the wall all the way around the turn into the back straight!

Joe - remember that? You had a good laugh while I was looking at the side of my car to confirm no contact (and there was none)
[/b]

I left you an inch by the wall? What was I thinking? :P