Pig Roast Day 2

[Andy Bettencourt]

Official results showed the official winner.... Thats what they are. Official.
I did cross the start finish line in second place however something happened that made the officials put me in 1st place. I am not sure what happened. It was either a mistake or intentional and no one protested the provisional results (we were all packing up) within the 30 minutes required so they became final results. A little poetic justice for a unsportsmanlike ITS driver (70) and a little bit of a kamakazi dive in last turn from the person who did cross the start finish line first in ITB. [/b]

Beran,

Some would say that the most unsportsman-like move of the weekend was when you walked up and accepted a 1st place trophy, Hoosier and VW contingency when you knew you hadn't won. Your conversation with the elder Carlson happened right in front of our pit area so I heard it all. I also find it ironic that the first words you had for Brian were "Hey, you cost me a race win" - then you seemingly collected your 'winnings' without protesting the results - officially or unofficially.

What happened was a mistake. We all know that. You crossed the electronic timing stripe first, but not the Finish line. The starter (and team) are supposed to log the finishing positions to have as a cross reference for any issues. Being G8, everyone was surely packing up but when you see an issue, you have to speak up. Just because it's official doesn't make it right. You COULD have - and still can, make it right. It may take a little work now, but what is right is right. By your logic, the 1:01 Joe D 'ran' in the Sat qualifier would have stood even though he went through T3 into T10. Instead, HE went and told them it was wrong. See how it's supposed to work?

As far as WHY you lost the race? It wasn't the #70 that created the issue in T12, it was the black ITB Volvo that created the issue. We watched the whole thing in real time. Will you be posting video if you have it? Did you drive your ass off only to be the victom of a lapped car in the last corner? Yes - but it wasn't the #70. Does it suck? You bet, but that's racing.

(on edit: this may be coming across as harsh, we all know we can see the same situation differently. I saw it from the outside, you saw it from your windshield. I am also tainted by the post-race/results issues when making my final judgements. To say that the #70 was unsportsmanlike is just wrong)

[JLawton]

Jeff, how much were you underweight? It wasn't literally 2 lbs, was it?
[/b]

Yup, two pounds......

[Beran]

Andy,
I'll post my point of view later tonight. But I'll give you a short version of what happened after the race.
Before you heard my conversation with Jim Carlson I had already spoken to Peter (Steward) when I went to collect my second place mug. I told Peter that I was not the winner and that the final results were wrong and what should I do. He told me that I could do nothing since they were just that. Final. I then did hear someone say that it was being looked into and that aggressive driving was being looked at. I left it at that and went to get results. I then was leaving with the results and Jim Carlson told me I had to do something about it. I told him I was not going to do anything. I do not think what I said was exactly right or fair. I should have said that I already spoke to Peter and he told me that I could not do anything.
If you believe that I can still give him the win then yes I will give him the win. I have told everyone that he crossed the finish line first. He did pull a very aggressive move and dove to the inside forcing me off the track. I still congratulated him on the win after the race and had no issue with the racing move. He wanted the win bad and he got it. Clearly T&S saw what happened and the guys on the front straight saw it. I did not have a transponder beep for my last lap so T&S and other officials involved must have either made a mistake or did what they wanted to do.
If I found out about it within the "provisional" time I would have told them Scott was the winner.
So yes my response to Jim was not a great one but he caught me a little off guard with his anger and threat of not respecting me. You and him did not realize or hear my conversation with Peter earlier.

[dazzlesa]

congrats to joe. hopefully we can have some fun at the glen.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,
I'll post my point of view later tonight. But I'll give you a short version of what happened after the race.
Before you heard my conversation with Jim Carlson I had already spoken to Peter (Steward) when I went to collect my second place mug. I told Peter that I was not the winner and that the final results were wrong and what should I do. He told me that I could do nothing since they were just that. Final. I then did hear someone say that it was being looked into and that aggressive driving was being looked at. I left it at that and went to get results. I then was leaving with the results and Jim Carlson told me I had to do something about it. I told him I was not going to do anything. I do not think what I said was exactly right or fair. I should have said that I already spoke to Peter and he told me that I could not do anything.
If you believe that I can still give him the win then yes I will give him the win. I have told everyone that he crossed the finish line first. He did pull a very aggressive move and dove to the inside forcing me off the track. I still congratulated him on the win after the race and had no issue with the racing move. He wanted the win bad and he got it. Clearly T&S saw what happened and the guys on the front straight saw it. I did not have a transponder beep for my last lap so T&S and other officials involved must have either made a mistake or did what they wanted to do.
If I found out about it within the "provisional" time I would have told them Scott was the winner.
So yes my response to Jim was not a great one but he caught me a little off guard with his anger and threat of not respecting me. You and him did not realize or hear my conversation with Peter earlier.
[/b]

Beran,

Props for responding. If it were me, I would get it corrected. They can change what they know to be true and you are the key to that. Understand too that I did hear a lot of that conversation including the portion about the money.

As far as your T&S and Finish judges comment, I believe you are wrong. T&S can not see the finish line and the Starter can not see who enters T12 first. 999 times out of 1000, the leader into T12 gets to the S/F line first. They do rely on the drivers to correct them if something is wrong. Same thing at Pocono.

I watched first hand the 'move' into 11/12. When the black Volvo backed Brian up in the corner, you backed out - leaving the apex WIDE open for Scott. He took it. The speed was very slow due to pace of the lapped Volvo. Scott got sideways as he tried to apply power - did he hit you? It didn't look like it but I couldn't see inbetween the cars obviously.

Bottom line, do what you think is right. Nothing is written in stone. Aside from a couple mugs and a few wooden astrays, repsect is all we have in this stupid, money-burning sport we love. I know you a little through Tom, you are a good guy and we can wait to get it sorted out.

[RKramden]

the guys on the front straight saw it.[/b]

Since I'm the "guy" on the front straight maybe I can fill you in on it from my perspective.

As you know, the transponder loop is in NASCAR turn 4, so the Starters (who are doing a lap chart for their own use) stop doing their chart on the very last lap and do a "Timing tape" of the order that the cars cross the Start/Finish line. Actually, we have three or for different people watching to make sure we don't miss anything. This is then passed to T/S and used to correct any changes due to passes that occurred between T/S and the S/F line.

We call the stewards in "Control" on our radio and report any passes that happen between the timing loop and S/F. That is exactly what I did in this case. We cannot call Timing directly because they are on a different radio network so we have to relay this information via the stewards. Normally it is "no changes" or occasionally one or two passes so it is easy to do.

After that, it is up to the stewards to pass the info to Timing, and it is up to timing to adjust the results on the computer to reflect reality. One of those two things failed to happen.

From memory (I don't have the paperwork here) it was 70, 55, 87, and 68. The cars may not have been on the same lap or in the same class, but we do not care, Timing knows that and gets it right (normally). 16 also got past 3, but it didn't impact the results. All the other cars crossed the S/F line in the same order they crossed the timing loop.

Please believe me in that this WILL be a serious topic for discussion at the next Regional Comp Board meeting which happens to be this Friday. Please attend if you want to say anything about this. (Or send an e-mail to Serge to express your opinion.) It's lucky that it is Friday as it is fresh in everyones mind. The same type of problem happened during the GT1 race on Saturday, but as I wasn't there, I cannot speak to what happened in that case. (I was actually in Timing working on a different computer problem for them during that race.)

[Eric Maynard]

Hello all. I would like to say that I really like what I read in this site. Even though there are differences of opinions, its great to see that for the most part, things are kept civilized.

The race at NHIS this past weekend was tremendous fun. I was definitely the slowest car out there in ITA, but I am working on it. The Laser is very heavy, down on power, and frankly, I need to grow a much larger set. I think removing the child car seat and 2 bags of groceries will help in the weight department.
I would also like to thank everyone for allowing me to go home with a fully intact rear bumper. As I said, I am slow right now, but I tried my hardest to watch my mirrors, and be safe and courteous to the faster cars....which means everybody..... including the stewards in golf carts (but I think my car looks cooler than their rides though!)

Either way, I enjoyed the track time with all of you, and I look forward to gaining speed and joining the mayhem in the pack soon. Cheers!

Eric Maynard
ITA Plymouth Laser

[dickita15]

Eric, it is good to have you back. You were real heads up when I saw you.

[JLawton]

Hello all. I would like to say that I really like what I read in this site. Even though there are differences of opinions, its great to see that for the most part, things are kept civilized.

The race at NHIS this past weekend was tremendous fun. I was definitely the slowest car out there in ITA, but I am working on it. The Laser is very heavy, down on power, and frankly, I need to grow a much larger set. I think removing the child car seat and 2 bags of groceries will help in the weight department.
I would also like to thank everyone for allowing me to go home with a fully intact rear bumper. As I said, I am slow right now, but I tried my hardest to watch my mirrors, and be safe and courteous to the faster cars....which means everybody..... including the stewards in golf carts (but I think my car looks cooler than their rides though!)

Either way, I enjoyed the track time with all of you, and I look forward to gaining speed and joining the mayhem in the pack soon. Cheers!

Eric Maynard
ITA Plymouth Laser
[/b]

It's about time you spoke up!!

Hey, it doesn&#39;t matter if your car is slow, it&#39;s still cool AND has a clean engine!! <insert laser sound here>


I agree with Dick, from my perspective you were heads up the whole weekend. Keep picking away at the car and it will get there!! Hey, if a POS Nissan can win, anybody has a chance!!


And for the moment we&#39;ve all been waiting for, here is Crazy Joe hitting the turn ten wall. AND, to top it all off, Richie and Joe drove like this the WHOLE race!!
You can see me (or hear me) backing off cause he scared the sh*t out of me!! It was the "shock and awe" technique to keep me behind him!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ZkVQs-TYo

[RKramden]

By your logic, the 1:01 Joe D &#39;ran&#39; in the Sat qualifier would have stood even though he went through T3 into T10. Instead, HE went and told them it was wrong. See how it&#39;s supposed to work?
[/b]

The difference between the two is that in this case T&S was alerted to the error BEFORE the final Q sheet was posted and, hence, it could be fixed.

For the Sunday race, it looks like the problem with the results was not noticed until AFTER the final results were posted. Final is final.

This is another case of there being a communications error, as the flaggers tell control that someone took the shortcut and then the stewards are supposed to call T&S to let them know. I suspect the first happened, but don&#39;t know where the error was introduced.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The difference between the two is that in this case T&S was alerted to the error BEFORE the final Q sheet was posted and, hence, it could be fixed.

For the Sunday race, it looks like the problem with the results was not noticed until AFTER the final results were posted. Final is final.

This is another case of there being a communications error, as the flaggers tell control that someone took the shortcut and then the stewards are supposed to call T&S to let them know. I suspect the first happened, but don&#39;t know where the error was introduced.

[/b]

Your assumption being that neither of the two saw provisionals. I doubt it, especially given the events surrounding the finish.

(On edit - there were many interested parties and I find it hard to believe nobody saw it. I am not accusing any single person of wrong-doing)

[Beran]

I did not see them since I was packing for more than an hour. 4 kids two cars and one 32 foot trailer is tons of stuff... including the camping stuff etc.

[dpc]

Nice job Dick---- dave

[RKramden]

Your assumption being that neither of the two saw provisionals. I doubt it, especially given the events surrounding the finish.
[/b]

Andy,

No, my assumption is that nothing was said to an official before the results became final. I have no direct proof if the provisionals were seen by any of the interested parties before that time, including you, since you seem to be quite interested. If something had been said I fully expect it would have been fixed.

Saturday: Comments made to officials (including your comments when you walked into T&S to point out the error) before the Q results were final. I know this to be a fact, as I was standing in T&S when you came in to talk about the error. And, since you came in about 30 seconds before the Q results were to be made final, the 1:01 would have stood as a Q time if YOU had not said something. The driver came in AFTER the 30 minute window to "fess up", but the new provisional Q sheet was already done and posted. (And the clock was "reset".)

Sunday: Comments made to officials after the Race results were final. And, it happens that I was standing right there as well.

Are we going to see you at the Comp Board meeting this Friday?

Do you have a solution to the problem, whatever it is, as I don&#39;t think anyone knows the exact chain of events that caused the mistakes, yet.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dave,

In order to know what the mistake was, if any, we need to know the procedure.

- When Start/Finish records such a chain of events, does it get proactively reported to T&S for an audit/correction?

- Do we just rely on drivers to self-police the results 100%?

- As drivers, we sit in post-race impund for what - 20 minutes, then have to get back to pits and then get changed and get a drink. Not a lot of fudge time in there for the review of provisionals but it is our job to get over there. We should all learn that anything could happen and a review of the results before they go final is always a must or else you could be SOL.

So I ask you - what SHOULD have happened? Should the information S/F recorded have been proactively transferred to T&S for a correction? What happens when the finish is so close that the drivers DON&#39;T know who wins? If it&#39;s not current procedure to audit the S/F records against the T&S loop, it should be. If it is, someone dropped the ball, no?

And please, stop with the &#39;attend the meeting&#39; stuff. Plenty of us do tons for the club, we certainly can learn and hash this out on this BB. If I decide I would like to make a recomendation to change policy, I most certainly will show up.

[RKramden]

- When Start/Finish records such a chain of events, does it get proactively reported to T&S for an audit/correction?[/b]

About a dozen replies back, I posted what happens.

As I said before, yes, it does.

- Do we just rely on drivers to self-police the results 100%?[/b]

No, but drivers may know things that T&S doesn&#39;t know, like the part about the Q times being wrong. T&S will accept almost any input showing a clear error.

If anyone had gone to T&S about the race results, I hope that as a minimum, the results would be put on hold until it could be investigated or a proper protest filed.

- As drivers, we sit in post-race impund for what - 20 minutes, then have to get back to pits and then get changed and get a drink. Not a lot of fudge time in there for the review of provisionals[/b]

Been there, done that, and that is why I always asked one person on my crew to look at the provisional results.

Also, the clock doesn&#39;t start until the results are actually posted in the normal place. That means if it takes T&S 10 or 15 minutes to get the provisionals posted, then you actually have about 45 minutes from when the last car took the checkered.
<blockquote>
Why would it take so long? Because T&S uses a computer to do the brunt of the work, but there is also a manual lap chart created from at least 3 different sources. These are checked against each other after the race, and if there are no problems, then required copies are made of the provisional results, and those are posted. Then the 30 minute clock starts.</blockquote>

So I ask you - what SHOULD have happened? Should the information S/F recorded have been proactively transferred to T&S for a correction?[/b]

As I said before, it automatically is done. Or, the message of "No changes" is passed, which is the normal case.

What happens when the finish is so close that the drivers DON&#39;T know who wins?[/b]

Then they should make sure they have someone look at the provisional results as soon as they can.

If it&#39;s not current procedure to audit the S/F records against the T&S loop, it should be. If it is, someone dropped the ball, no?[/b]

And the ball bounced a few times. But, as I said, I don&#39;t know if it was a "someone", or a chain of events involving multiple people. (Note diligent attempt to avoid finger pointing as I don&#39;t have all the facts.)

And please, stop with the &#39;attend the meeting&#39; stuff. Plenty of us do tons for the club, we certainly can learn and hash this out on this BB.
[/b]

We are not going to "hash this out" here, because most of the people involved don&#39;t read this BB. 90% of them will be at the meeting, however.

I&#39;m not saying you should be going to all the meetings, but it seems that you have a huge interest in this one topic, and as it will be talked about, you should express your views. If you don&#39;t want to go, then at least send an e-mail to Serge.

If you are unwilling to provide input that helps to solve a perceived problem then you shouldn&#39;t complain about the results.

[dominojd]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you on all the congrats.

It really feels great to win one of these things.

Like Jeff said in an earlier post. It is AWESOME racing with you guys. And we have fun too.

And yes Jeff the "shock and awe" is going to be my new tactic.

[gran racing]

I knew I should have just rebuilt my old Prelude with Bondo and continued to be more like Joe!

[lateapex911]

hey, I love Joe as much as the next guy... (well, maybe not as much as every next guy, but...well, anyway....)

..........but as much as we all love him, ....do we really want TWO of him??

As I said at the track, impressive weekend Joe.

[dominojd]

I knew I should have just rebuilt my old Prelude with Bondo and continued to be more like Joe!
[/b]

Hey the new car looks great. Keep it that way. I just need to get through the rest of the season and my baby will be all new by the first race of next year.

hey, I love Joe as much as the next guy... (well, maybe not as much as every next guy, but...well, anyway....)

..........but as much as we all love him, ....do we really want TWO of him??

As I said at the track, impressive weekend Joe.
[/b]

I love you too Jake. Maybe we could watch Steel Magnolias sometime like me an dJeff did at the redroof over the weekend

Thank you sir. I am looking forward to racing you in the rain.