SCCA Club Racing for people who have turned 14 years of age...........

[ddewhurst]

***There have been two kids doing their SCCA schools in the South East within the past 5 or so years IIRC that crashed their cars (dads car) one even rolled the car in his (father is a past National Champ in a Production car) school & the both received their Novice permit. WHY did these two kids receive their Novice permit ? WRONG...................... (Please don't anyone tell me about extenuating circumstances, it's a friken SCHOOL.)***

Jake, read what I said & take it to be a couple facts. Why did the above take place ? You tell me what failed..........

IMHJ when daddy $$$'s kid shouldn't make the grade for a Novice permit more of the above will take place.

Like I said in the previous post I am not looking for an arguement. Just pointing some things from the past that happened for ALL to THINK about. The SCCA may have 90% good instructors in which case the SCCA needs to be concerned about the 10% instructors who may not be good.

[MMiskoe]

As an instructor I had a student who when I asked what his 'driving experience' included he told me he'd been driving a stick on the street for 10 weeks (he had turned 16 ten weeks prior to the school). Confused I asked if he had any track experience. "Oh yes, at one of the XXXX races you had to drive the car about a 1/3 lap to get to grid, so my dad let me drive it to grid that day". I told him that didn't count.

The car he had was a handful, he did some dumb rookie things (and his dad was waiting w/ a tire iron each time he came off track). But he listened, he was able to make changes when you asked him to and wasn't at all scary to watch. He got signed off.

OTOH I've seen guys who have 3 digit SCCA numbers act like I don't know what, yet not have any idea that they've even made a mistake.

Go back about 2 years and look at the thread that brought up questions about should we have a licensing program that encourages continued feedback to the new driver through the course of their first season, not just their first double school weekend. The requirements to get a license in SCCA don't really require that much experience, therefore skill & judgement can also be quite limited.

FWIW My 5 year old is pissed as hell that he has to wait 2 years to race a cart and 11 years before he can go in the pit lane.

Matt

[charrbq]

We've all seen examples of idiots and juvenilles behind the wheel and on track regardless of their age. We have to look at it just as auto insurance agencies do. There is simply an age where, statistically certain individuals are more prone to being involved in accidents. Should we ignore that statistic and place them and us in potentially hazardous situations?

[lateapex911]

Yes, we should ignore that statistic!!!! It's ridiculous to even compare the two! Thats like price shopping for two cars that are different with different drivetrains!

What a young person does on the street is TOTALLY unrelated to what a young person does on the track!!


The bigger issue I see is the tightening up of the instructor system, and even bigger than that is the fact that once you have your credentials, nothing short of a massive run of errors can take them away. No matter what your age, 14, 44 or 84.

[Joe Harlan]

Intresting conversation with somebody in the insurance business today. The feeling is that the harm from getting one of these kids hurt or killed will be huge. The issue is that (i have not confirmed this) parents cannot sign the rights of a child (14 is a child in the eyes of the court) away so the waiver maybe able to be sued around. Clearly there must be some way around it as kids have been moto-crossing and karting at this age for years. Maybe there is a difference in the assumed risks since most states don't start kids driving until the age of 16. I have little issue with 14 year olds racing but I do have concern that SCCA could not survive another major lawsuit payout.

[charrbq]

Yes, we should ignore that statistic!!!! It's ridiculous to even compare the two! Thats like price shopping for two cars that are different with different drivetrains!

What a young person does on the street is TOTALLY unrelated to what a young person does on the track!!

[/b]

Explain "totally".

How, we take away the cell phone, hip hop music and crowded car full of similar aged children and replace that with maturity, judgement and experience.

[lateapex911]

It's "totally different because:

A- a state driving permit is basicially given to nearly anyone who can screw together the feeblest attempt at driving skill. Driving in America is considered to be nearly a "right", and not a privledge. Certain states, towns, or schools are better than others, but the gross efffect remains that nearly anyone who can apply for one can get a lic, and can drive at all hours and conditions, whether self created or existing. (drunk, or bad weather, etc)

B- the very nature of a young persons life means that many don't have cars, therefore they often share, reducing concentration levels. Add to that the instant gratification and percieved emergencies that are text messages, cel phone calls and MP3 song selections, and its easy to see that attention paid to the task of actual driving suffers.

C: the general youth driving population isn't interested in driving as an art, or as an atheletic endeavor, it's not seen as more than an experience at best, or a method of transportation, and is afforded, in most cases, the minimum amount of attention needed.

On the other hand.................

Someone who aspires to race cars is:

A: The rare exception....one in thousands

B: The act of driving a car on the track is one of total concentration....it's not a casual happening. A conscious decision has been made to do something that requires skill to do well...and the whole point of the exercise is to to do it well.....and the result is concentration on the task at hand, and a grasp of the severity of the situation.

C It's an atheltic event...a competition...and the entrant is deisous of performing at levels that most don't even begin to comprehend.

Comparing the average young driver to a young racer, and thinking that the same "risk factors" as described by insurance carriers applies is, to my mind, useless. They are worlds apart.

I contend that there are those who are young and posess the skills and judgement needed to perform on the track, and there are those that do not. Desire and financial ability can be common to both. It remains our job to ensure the first two are present in adequate amounts before granting them a Novice permit....and their age is actually not the deciding factor.

[charrbq]

Boy, you shot more holes into your opinion than I could even if I wanted to! Do you proof read all your posts?

[LMan]

The first 14-YO who gets killed/severely injured at a SCCA event will cause the SCCA to be sued back to the Stone Age for years to come. Ability is irrelevant.....all the shysters have to do is intone the word "child" about 2k times during the trial and the cash registers will ring until Doomsday.

[Stan]

The first 14-YO who gets killed/severely injured at a SCCA event will cause the SCCA to be sued back to the Stone Age for years to come. Ability is irrelevant.....all the shysters have to do is intone the word "child" about 2k times during the trial and the cash registers will ring until Doomsday.[/b]

This argument would carry a lot more weight if 10's of thousands of under-16 kids were not racing in organized and insured motorcross, kart, NASA, Formula BMW, roundy-round and other motorsports events every weekend without those organizations being sued into the Stone Age. The insurance folks who cover SCCA are also in those other areas of coverage and know whereof they speak (after all, they are in the business of providing coverage at a profit), and their position is that once a club permits non-adults (under 18) there is no significant additional liability exposure between a (pick your age) and a 17 year old. All are "children" in the eyes of the law. What "protects" an organization is its requirement to have a parent present, licensing standards and maintaining a controlled environment. That's why motorsports continues to thrive in this country. If the industry were in constant threat of being wiped out by liability this would not be the case.

[lateapex911]

To further that point, I'd bet SCCA has better lic. standards than many of the organizations Stan mentioned. I've been to some of those events, and the attention to safety is ...well, alarming.

[RacerBill]

To further that point, I'd bet SCCA has better lic. standards than many of the organizations Stan mentioned. I've been to some of those events, and the attention to safety is ...well, alarming.
[/b]

I needed to test my car before towing to an event, so I took it down to Columbus Motor Speedway on a test and tune day. The guy at the gate took my twenty bucks and that was the only person I saw other than the guy who waved me onto the track!. No tech, no look at any kind of license, NOTHING!

Last weekend I was at a vintage event and heard one driver tell another "Don't get hurt this weekend. They don't have a doctor on site!"

[ddewhurst]

***This argument would carry a lot more weight if 10's of thousands of under-16 kids were not racing in organized and insured motorcross, kart, NASA, Formula BMW, roundy-round and other motorsports events every weekend without those organizations being sued into the Stone Age.***

Stan, if you check you will find that in WKA & IKF Karters 14 & under are NOT allowed to race in senior (16 years old) classes. 15 years of age is considered a crossover year if their birthday falls within the Karting season. Therefore you may take a bunch of your 10's of thousands of under-16 kids out of your statement.

[lateapex911]

I needed to test my car before towing to an event, so I took it down to Columbus Motor Speedway on a test and tune day. The guy at the gate took my twenty bucks and that was the only person I saw other than the guy who waved me onto the track!. No tech, no look at any kind of license, NOTHING!

[/b]

Sorry for the OT, but $20!!!!??!?!?!?!

Jeeez, a test and tune at Lime Rock is $250!!!

(And they didn't look, or ask what was in my trailer either)

[Stan]

***This argument would carry a lot more weight if 10's of thousands of under-16 kids were not racing in organized and insured motorcross, kart, NASA, Formula BMW, roundy-round and other motorsports events every weekend without those organizations being sued into the Stone Age.***

Stan, if you check you will find that in WKA & IKF Karters 14 & under are NOT allowed to race in senior (16 years old) classes. 15 years of age is considered a crossover year if their birthday falls within the Karting season. Therefore you may take a bunch of your 10's of thousands of under-16 kids out of your statement.
[/b]

You missed my point, David. Irrespective of whom they are racing against, those kids are still racing in sanctioned motorsports competitions where they run a risk to life and limb, and those organizations are not being sued into the Stone Age. Chicken-Little cries of "OH MY GAWD WE'RE GONNA GET SUED INTO THE STONE AGE!!!eleventy1!!!" simply don't hold up to any examination.

There are lots of perfectly legitimate questions to raise about permitting 14-15 year olds to race with us, but emotional appeals like this are not among them, IMHO.

Stan

[ddewhurst]

***Chicken-Little cries of "OH MY GAWD WE'RE GONNA GET SUED INTO THE STONE AGE!!!eleventy1!!!" simply don't hold up to any examination.***

^ not my comment.

***There are lots of perfectly legitimate questions to raise about permitting 14-15 year olds to race with us,***

YOU did get MY point.