How does 7hp=220lbs??

[Z3_GoCar]

Their baseline run is well over 150ft-lbs.... wouldn't seem like the wheel torque to me.

James

1996 Z3:

Standard equipment included cast alloy wheels, leatherette upholstery and a manual top. Featured a 1.9-liter DOHC 16-valve inline 4-cylinder with 138hp @ 6,000 rpm and 133 lb-ft of torque @ 4,300 rpm and a 5-speed manual transmission.
....
[/b]

This is where I got 133 lb-ft as the starting number for torque. This seems to blow your graph out of the water Joe, as the base line's way above the stated torque.

James

[Doc Bro]

At what point can we agree that there will be cars that just make better track cars than others? To what level of granularity do you want to go to try and make everything equal? We certainly go way further than ever before - too far for some actually.
[/b]

Andy,

Isn't that so easy to say when your sitting on that many victories and have NEVER been lapped in a race. Must be nice. The Z3 could be a "better" track car IF it were classed at a slightly lighter weight. You've NEVER heard me ask for a 200# pound reduction. That WOULD NOT BE FAIR; and I've too much integrity for that. While I have NO desire to take away from you or your program, I do KNOW for a fact that you've NEVER walked in my shoes. It is an uphill battle with you, the ITAC and the politics of the SCCA. Why is it so hard for a man (or group of men) to admit he made a mistake???? The car doesn't make the power it was estimated to make IMO. I'm trying to prove it to you (as a gentleman), your disputing it. Where is your (or any other) 165hp Z3? Show me one (without a supercharger) and I'll buy it for you. Is it that hard for you to trust?

R



I'm done............................

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob,

The point is that it isn't a mistake. It's all that the process will allow for in it's current form. Does the process do justice to cars that are 'less than the sum of their parts'? I don't hesitate to say no - but what is the solution? Pure Comp Adjustments? How much? Based on what - on track performance?

[Joe Harlan]

Their baseline run is well over 150ft-lbs.... wouldn't seem like the wheel torque to me.

James
This is where I got 133 lb-ft as the starting number for torque. This seems to blow your graph out of the water Joe, as the base line's way above the stated torque.

James
[/b]

But BMW would never underate their torque ot HP numbers now would they. It was a piece of data found on the web and nothing more....You guys really need to chill. As stated I feel the process is not being applied apples to apples but I also feel that no one has developed this car to the level of the Miata or the 240sx just in raw numbers.

[Z3_GoCar]

James, As I have stated many times before. The 240sx breaths through 1.75 intake hole in the MAF sensor. Should the MAF ever be a free part then the 240sx would need to move to ITS. The fact is that the 240sx was run through the exact process and gained weight and not one 240sx guy complained believing thatif the process was run equally across the board that they were getting a fair shake. Now it does not look like that is happening in all cases.
[/b]

1.75 inches is 44.4mm. If that was a SIR you'd be good for well over 250hp, plus you've got 500cc more displacement to pull the air through that hole. As it is I do agree that the process wasn't correctly run.

James

[Doc Bro]

Rob,

The point is that it isn't a mistake. It's all that the process will allow for in it's current form. Does the process do justice to cars that are 'less than the sum of their parts'? I don't hesitate to say no - but what is the solution? Pure Comp Adjustments? How much? Based on what - on track performance?
[/b]

Well I guess i'm not done ....yet,

I guess the best thing for you to do for me Andy, is explain exactly how the Z3 came to 2675 and then 2600.... then I'll let it rest. If you'd like to be a really stand up guy, then do it for the 318is and Miata too. It's not that I've got it in for the Miata, in fact that couldn't be further from the truth, it's just that the 318is and the Miata are the 2 benchmarks I'm using based on (obvious) similarities

No smoke, no mirrors.....just the honest, truthful facts. Do that one favor for me, publicly.....

R

[Joe Harlan]

1.75 inches is 44.4mm. If that was a SIR you'd be good for well over 250hp, plus you've got 500cc more displacement to pull the air through that hole. As it is I do agree that the process wasn't correctly run.

James
[/b]

James, stop. Yes you could make 250hp through a 29mm intake if you have compression and cams to do it. But we don't . We get 9.5:1 I think the BMW 1.9 gets 10.5:1 if I am not mistaken...You really need to quit while I am agreeing that the process has been given a blackeye. But I can tell you I build many many IT engines a year. I know exaclty what the best 240sx engines get I know I am still a couple of ponies short of that and still working. I also know that the BMW is more than the sum of the numbers put out by BMW but even then the process should be run the same. I will bet the brakes and suspension have as much to do with the adders as anything.

[Z3_GoCar]

But BMW would never underate their torque ot HP numbers now would they. It was a piece of data found on the web and nothing more....You guys really need to chill. As stated I feel the process is not being applied apples to apples but I also feel that no one has developed this car to the level of the Miata or the 240sx just in raw numbers.
[/b]

You're right about that only TC Kline has done any development work on these cars, as a matter of fact my car, Rob's car, Noem's car, and the majority of roadsters running have come from TC's shop. TC ran these cars in Grand-Am and I'm sure finished well, but the only win's I know of came in the Z4. When you go look for performance parts you'll find all kinds for the 6cylinder cars but hardly anything for the M-44. I know that Rob's found the best engine builder in his area, just ask Greg Amy, to build his engine for no excuses. If Rob and his car is getting lapped at NHIS, then something is wrong with how the car is classed. If he's loosing 3 seconds per lap at LRP to Andy, then something's not right. The fact is the ITAC already fudges these things, how do they deal with rotary output gains? Gains from fuel injected 2-valve motors?

Jeff's right this car's part e-30 and part e-36. Chassis and suspension wise everythings out there and reletively easy to get. If we want info we just call Pete at TC's. He's got us covered for chassis set up.

James

[Joe Harlan]

You're right about that only TC Kline has done any development work on these cars, as a matter of fact my car, Rob's car, Noem's car, and the majority of roadsters running have come from TC's shop. TC ran these cars in Grand-Am and I'm sure finished well, but the only win's I know of came in the Z4. When you go look for performance parts you'll find all kinds for the 6cylinder cars but hardly anything for the M-44. I know that Rob's found the best engine builder in his area, just ask Greg Amy, to build his engine for no excuses. If Rob and his car is getting lapped at NHIS, then something is wrong with how the car is classed. If he's loosing 3 seconds per lap at LRP to Andy, then something's not right. The fact is the ITAC already fudges these things, how do they deal with rotary output gains? Gains from fuel injected 2-valve motors?

Jeff's right this car's part e-30 and part e-36. Chassis and suspension wise everythings out there and reletively easy to get. If we want info we just call Pete at TC's. He's got us covered for chassis set up.

James
[/b]

James, having met and shared a lot of information with TC on the 350z program I will say this. UNLESS TC IS RACING ONE IN ITA then nobody has doen the development work on these cars for IT. A grandam cup setup ain't gonna cut it at the ARRC. I honestly do not know Rob so I can't comment on anything about is prep or driving ability but if I were getting lapped in a class I think I would be looking hard at myself and my own abilities to prep and drive before I would be screaming the car is mis-classed.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Smoke and mirrors, like we have been anything but transparant....come on. It's either a poor choice of words or you don't respect the effort.

Again without my checks and balances:

I do not know how the Z3 ever got classed at 2675. I believe that was pre-process. Even people who were classing pre-process can't tell us how cars got to their weights. 2850 for an ITS E36? 3050lbs before any adders on that one...just no sense to the history.

140hp is assumed to make 175 crank hp in IT trim. This gives it a base weight of 2540lbs. A 50lb adder for large brakes (16% larger than the Integra, 13% larger than the SE-R, 12% larger than the 240SX, etc). That brings it to 2590...not sure about that extra 10lbs. It might have been set at 2600 to make cohesive sense of all the 140hp RWD BMW 4 cyl cars in ITA. You will notice there are 6 of them.

When we did the 'correction' in Feb of 05, as a rule, we didn't change anything under 100lbs inside of it's process weight. It was considered 'static' for the purposes of the process and IT as a whole.

As stated in a previous post, the E36 318is is effectively the same car according to the process.

The Miata was classed first using the 128hp 94-95 car (as has been beaten to death in the other thread). 128 is assumed to get to 160 crank. This gives it a base weight of 2320. 50 lbs for double wishbones for a total of 2370. An additional 'fudge factor' of 50lbs was considered as the car is certainly a great platform but that weight would have brought it over the 2380lb cage-limitation so only 10lbs was able to be added given that barrier. We did.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If Rob and his car is getting lapped at NHIS, then something is wrong with how the car is classed. If he's loosing 3 seconds per lap at LRP to Andy, then something's not right. James
[/b]

Rob can speak to his trials this season because he is throwing everything up against the to see what sticks in order to go faster. But PLEASE lets not use laps times as our guide here. A proper corner weighting and set-up gained him 4.8 seconds at Lime Rock THIS YEAR between May and June. If he finds even 2 seconds at NHIS, he finishes second. If he finds the same 4, he wins. It's just not right to use these items as foundation arguments.

[IPRESS]

You guys that have been doing this a lot longer may know , but do most mfgs. published HP numbers pan out as REAL?
The only ones I have personal knowledge of are crate 1.8s for the miata. The best of three that we dynoed without the restrictor plate was at 119. I think the same engine with the plate was 114. This was done in 04 if my memory is correct. This same thing may be similar with other mfgs. Maybe some of you guys know.

[Doc Bro]

The smoke and mirrors comment was specifically that you sometimes get off topic.....that's all. I never question a person's integrity.

What are the 140 HP BMW's?
You do mean 138?

I will do the math on all of this tomorrow (I'm tired).

It's interesting though....I've never brought up lap times or on track (other than saying it stinks to get lapped) performance because it doesn't matter. I find it curious though, that you just did, was that fear preventing you from looking at this objectively?

Andy, you're the first guy to say ontrack performance doesn't matter. Why'd you go there in regards to my lap times. Fair is fair. Are we not playing by the same rules in this debate? Do I need to pull up all your whoa's me posts about being underpowered while you set lap records and successfully navigate your way to the championship? Let's stick to the facts my friend.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's interesting though....I've never brought up lap times or on track (other than saying it stinks to get lapped) performance because it doesn't matter. I find it curious though, that you just did, was that fear preventing you from looking at this objectively?

Andy, you're the first guy to say ontrack performance doesn't matter. Why'd you go there in regards to my lap times. Fair is fair. Are we not playing by the same rules in this debate? Do I need to pull up all your whoa's me posts about being underpowered while you set lap records and successfully navigate your way to the championship? Let's stick to the facts my friend.

R
[/b]

Rob, please read all the posts. My comments were in response to James' use of YOUR comparitive lap times (in his post #48) to prove something is wrong within the process. Also read my SPECIFIC point that lap times do NOT tell the story we are trying to learn and that we should NOT use them. If you want to use lap times for me, go ahead. Just make sure you apply weather conditions, heat cycles of my tires, my relative driving ability +/- compared to those on grid with us, prep level +/- of my car compared to those on grid with us and any number of other items un-quantifiable.

[Joe Harlan]

The smoke and mirrors comment was specifically that you sometimes get off topic.....that's all. I never question a person's integrity.

What are the 140 HP BMW's?
You do mean 138?

I will do the math on all of this tomorrow (I'm tired).

It's interesting though....I've never brought up lap times or on track (other than saying it stinks to get lapped) performance because it doesn't matter. I find it curious though, that you just did, was that fear preventing you from looking at this objectively?

Andy, you're the first guy to say ontrack performance doesn't matter. Why'd you go there in regards to my lap times. Fair is fair. Are we not playing by the same rules in this debate? Do I need to pull up all your whoa's me posts about being underpowered while you set lap records and successfully navigate your way to the championship? Let's stick to the facts my friend.


R
[/b]

Rob to be fair to ANdy, it was James that brought up your lap times,

I do find this statement curious and an admission of what really went on.

An additional 'fudge factor' of 50lbs was considered as the car is certainly a great platform but that weight would have brought it over the 2380lb cage-limitation so only 10lbs was able to be added given that barrier. We did.[/b]

So if we went with the 133hp the weight would have made the car stay in ITS.....Simple case closed it was a clear cut case of trying to be fair to a tweener but we have not given that same consideration to other tweeners RX7, MR2 ect.....Done with this but at least we now understand.

So given that set of facts the Miata should be 2457 using the correct process.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So if we went with the 133hp the weight would have made the car stay in ITS.....Simple case closed it was a clear cut case of trying to be fair to a tweener but we have not given that same consideration to other tweeners RX7, MR2 ect.....Done with this but at least we now understand. [/b]

What? I don't get how you make that statement. The car would be 2195 in ITS - an unattainable weight by an easy 150lbs.

Half the ITAC would love to class the MR2 and RX-7 in ITB at an appropriate weight. There is no concensus. The CONSIDERATION is there, it just hasn't happened. If it did, I would build an MR2 for ITB.

[Joe Harlan]

What? I don't get how you make that statement. The car would be 2195 in ITS - an unattainable weight by an easy 150lbs.

Half the ITAC would love to class the MR2 and RX-7 in ITB at an appropriate weight. There is no concensus. The CONSIDERATION is there, it just hasn't happened. If it did, I would build an MR2 for ITB.
[/b]

Because using the 133hp number puts the cage out of spec in ITA at 2457.....

[Doc Bro]

A proper corner weighting and set-up gained him 4.8 seconds at Lime Rock THIS YEAR between May and June. If he finds even 2 seconds at NHIS, he finishes second. If he finds the same 4, he wins. It's just not right to use these items as foundation arguments.
[/b]

What?? How did I missquote you? You went there not me........

Did you take into consideration MY prep level+/-, my heat cycles, etc., etc......you went there not me....

James had nothing to do with it.............

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Because using the 133hp number puts the cage out of spec in ITA at 2457..... [/b]

Phew, I at least understand what you are saying now! Late here ya know...

Again, the issue was that the car already classed and this car are the same car in IT trim. I can't stress this enough. Support the logic or not, it's how it was done.

[Doc Bro]

I do find this statement curious and an admission of what really went on.[/b]

Joe,

Was that to me or AB? What were you getting at? Sorry it went over my head....I'm tired I guess

R