Door Glass Removal Rescind?

[grjones1]

Please someone confirm that Item 8 of the new ITCS recommendations by deleting permission to remove door glass does not intend to rescind door glass removal!?!!

GRJ

[Speed Raycer]

My technical wording's probably off, but the ITCS trumps the GCR. By removing the wording in the ITCS, the GCR would provide the rule... which according to the new Fastrack, it will ( and by the looks of it, might not even require the bar to enter into the door??? I'll have to read through it again)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am not sure where this came from but I do know the CRB is trying to consolodate cage rules to facilitate crossover. If NASCAR bars are permitted elsewhere in the ITCS, then I would think that the removal of the glass would be allowed under:

equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted.</div>
<div align="left"></span></span>[/b][/quote]</div>
<div align="left">Bold mine. NASCAR bars may be an authorized mod elsewhere in the ITCS. Not in front of my GCR right now.</span></div>
</span>

[RSTPerformance]

As posted in the other thread... you can only remove the glass if you have to to install the door bars.

In Improved Touring if it doesn&#39;t say you can then you can&#39;t... The entire section that allowed you to remove door window glass, window operating mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism was deleted from the ITCS thus you cant remove any of it... Unless however it is to facilitate the instalation of side protection bars as stated in the "new" rules:

9.4. ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS

D. SIDE PROTECTION
Two side tubes connecting the front and rear hoops across both door openings are mandatory. NASCAR-style side protection or one bar bisecting another to form an “X” is permitted. Door side tubes may extend into the door. In American Sedan, Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring the door window glass, window operating mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this type of side protection. The stock side impact beam and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified unless specifically authorized in the category rules.

Thats how I read it however... if you were to end the sentance before the "and" then you do get...

9.4. ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS

D. SIDE PROTECTION
Two side tubes connecting the front and rear hoops across both door openings are mandatory. NASCAR-style side protection or one bar bisecting another to form an “X” is permitted. Door side tubes may extend into the door. In American Sedan, Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring the door window glass, window operating mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this type of side protection. The stock side impact beam and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified unless specifically authorized in the category rules.

Raymond "what is the actual intent..." Blethen

[JoshS]

Raymond "what is the actual intent..." Blethen
[/b]

Don&#39;t try to overanalyze. I&#39;m sure the intent is to consolidate the roll cage rules to more easily facilitate moving a car from one category to another.

In IT, you had to use Nascar bars that extend into the doors to gut the door before, and you still do.

[Speed Raycer]

I&#39;ll bite....

Two side tubes connecting the front and rear hoops across both door openings are mandatory. NASCAR-style side protection or one bar bisecting another to form an “X” is permitted.
Ok... I&#39;ve got an X on the pass. side

Door side tubes may extend into the door.
My X Bars don&#39;t enter into the door structure, but since MAY is a key word, they don&#39;t HAVE to.

In American Sedan, Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring the door window glass, ..yada yada .. may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this type of side protection.
Which side protection? The X? Ok... I&#39;ve got one of those.

I&#39;m with you Ray though... but I can see how it can be interpreted a different way. Back before the X bar part of the rule was inserted it was fairly black and white. Only gut when you&#39;ve got a NASCAR style bar.

[JoshS]

I&#39;m with you Ray though... but I can see how it can be interpreted a different way. Back before the X bar part of the rule was inserted it was fairly black and white. Only gut when you&#39;ve got a NASCAR style bar.
[/b]

That&#39;s the point. This confusion, if there is any, was introduced when the X-bar clarification was added several Fastracks ago ... not in this latest Fastrack. The latest Fastrack doesn&#39;t change anything.

[RSTPerformance]

Josh-

I agree the rules have not changed... Someone might try and play some word play to justify the change though... I don&#39;t think that is the intent. It could have been written better, not that I have any right to say something could be written better or more clear!!! lol

Raymond

[grjones1]

I&#39;ll assume according to your remarks and the GCR cage rules that in any case as long as we conformed to the old rules for door glass removal, we can leave the glass out. Thanks for your quick response and "clarification."

GRJ

[Greg Amy]

...It could have been written better...[/b]

Seems we&#39;re getting a lot of that lately...

[ddewhurst]

***I am not sure where this came from but I do know the CRB is trying to consolodate cage rules to facilitate crossover.****

Gee, to bad the ITAC/CRB can&#39;t stroke a guy when he writes a letter suggesting equal side protection for Production & IT for making a simpler transition. I will not bother digging out their bullshit Fatsrack response they gave when the Fastrack came out.

[dickita15]

Yes David, they should of answered with a “we are working on it” instead of a “rules are adequate as written”, by why not look on the bright side, maybe your input was part of the reason this had been addressed. If so, thank you.

[lateapex911]

I&#39;m actually surprised to see this cage stuff. First bravo. But I can tell you it&#39;s been going on for a long time...years actually, and there was a lot of groundwork that needed to happen. I&#39;ts not as simple as it appears, and it&#39;was a multi headed snake to tackle. Good for them.

[Mike Guenther]

Some X bars also extend into the door and thus require the removal of the panel and glass. But if your X style design does not "require the removal" then it is questionable if it is within the rule.

Trivial details in my humble opinion.

[lateapex911]

Right, an X bar configuration can meet the "nascar" definition, and thus you may remove door glass etc, if the X bars are done right.

[charrbq]

Here&#39;s what I&#39;m doing. My new bars came from the same company that built my roll cage. They extend into the door panel. Since the door panel and glass had been removed from the driver&#39;s side as allowed by the potrusion of the original door bar, the only thing I had to do was a firm application of a "Ford Tool" to some inner sheet metal. However, even though the passenger door will still shut, it barely will latch and protrudes at the bottom where the new door bar presses against the door liner. I&#39;m not really worried about the door glass as much as the integrity of the latch, which could fail due to the stress placed on it. (think large person, small pants, zipper)
As allowed by the rules, I&#39;m removing the inner panel from the door, hammering back the attachment points for clearance, and taking advantage of the window glass removal option.

[johnny yanez]

it is very simple,, if the door bars extend into the door (nascar bars, 2 bars horizontal meeting the rear part of the cage) the door may be gutted, if you have the X bars, and the do not extend into the door then the door must remain with the glass and mechanism. most Xbars that i have seen do not extend into the doors.

[Knestis]

Sooo, we are saying that the glass can be removed if the door bars protrude into the door, look like what you&#39;d see in a Cup car, or both? Even if the bars don&#39;t actually protrude into the space occupied by the window...?

I&#39;m just askin&#39;.

K

[Bill Miller]

Sooo, we are saying that the glass can be removed if the door bars protrude into the door, look like what you&#39;d see in a Cup car, or both? Even if the bars don&#39;t actually protrude into the space occupied by the window...?

I&#39;m just askin&#39;.

K
[/b]

That&#39;s the way I would read it Kirk. Essentially, once your bars break the plane of the door panel, you&#39;re allowed to remove whatever you&#39;re allowed to remove.

[lateapex911]

Kirk, I know you know the answer....LOL

If we all read the GCR...the NASCAR door bars are defined as one or more horizontal bars attaching the frot and rear hoops and entering the door cavity.

"Horizontal" is not defined in the GCR, and there are no tolerances for what is, and what is not horizontal either. And....the rules allow X bars specifically as meeting the two horizontal bars rule, so....

Seems to me that an X bar configuration that enters the door cavity qualifies for the NASCAR door bar door guts removal allowance.