What would it take for you to go Production car racing

[cherokee]

I want to be honst here, I want to be positive.

I know that most racers are happy in IT, I also know that many have looked at production and said "Only IF....."

Well I want to know what that Only IF is. I want to make production a place that people will want to upgrade to, and know it will not cost them a bunch of $$, heartache and headache. There are problems in production everyone can agree on that much at least. Lets start talking about fixing the problems, and what it would take for you to be a production racer.

There is a thread on the prod board that tells you how to find the Advisory Committee members for production, I will copy the info here:

Disclaimer: I'm not a production car driver or crew member. I'm one of those "somewhat worthless officials" (as Matt W refers to us). However, I'm also a second generation race brat, and I throughly enjoy watching the production cars race together.

Please, please while you're busy working on plans/ideas/etc to extend the life of the current production classes contact your Production Advisory Committee members. These gentlemen have volunteered their time to serve on the committee. They can't monitor everything that gets said on this board, but if you feel strongly about what needs to be done - please contact them. They need to be involved in this process and be your advocates to the CRB and the BoD.

I will not post their contact information here - but it is available to each and every SCCA member through the website. (www.scca.org -> Inside SCCA -> Boards & Committees -> Log In to secured area -> Directory -> Boards & Committees -> Production Committee)

David Lemon
Jesse Prather
Jon Brakke, Chair
Eric Krueger
Kevin Dennis
Kevin Allen
Larry Funk
Mike Cummings
Tom Feller

Donning my nomex and going back to lurking,
Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"
Natl Registrar/Natl F&C/Sr T&S




There is also a thread going over on the prod site about "fixing production"

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewtopic.php?t=7904

Let me know your ideas, reasons, whatever for your opinions. Lets try to keep it clean and above board.

[RSTPerformance]

I would run national races in production if I did not have to do anything to change my IT car from weekend to weekend, and if my car was classed.

IE:

1. Classify EVERY IT car into a class, don't require members to submit all the info on the car and a request... It sounds lame, but people are lazy and they don't want to do the work. If the car is classed and legal in another class then they will (might) come
2. Change IT or Prod rules to be similar in the areas of door window glass, headlights, etc so that cars can be legal in BOTH classes without making changes.
3. Allow production cars to race on DOT legal tires if they choose... I have to ask why isn't this legal? It is an obviose disadvantage.
4. Fuel Cell? While it is legal to have a fuel cell in an IT car, a lot of people don't. It needs to be revisited as to If one is needed especially for LP.
5. Fire System? Is this a rule? if so is it needed as well for LP?

Again if I could not change anything to my car and run in a production class then you would probably see me out a few times running in production (and no not in DP, lets at least have a chance to finish mid pack).


Raymond

[cherokee]

If you did not have to change anything and still run production is a little confusing. As I see things IT is a step up in prep from a SS car, and Prod shoud be a setp in in prep from a IT car, right now I think that step from a top IT car to a top Prod car is too great.

Now I think that any SS car should have a place in IT just as any IT car should have a place in prod. But I think we can all agree that unless that SS car upgrades some things like shocks, ECU, Exhaust.... the SS car is not going to have much of a chance, so for that SS car to have a chance in IT it would have to make some changes. I think the same should hold true for Prod.

What I am fishing for is things like $7000 trannys are crazy, 14:1 motors dont live very long, I am not an engineer so I don't want to move susp points around, rules not stable....whatever.

While I agree that an IT car should be legal in Prod I don't feel that an IT car with no additional prep should be a top 5 car.

[ddewhurst]

cherokee, I worked a bit with a guy from KC in an attempt to get the 1st gen RX-7 non-ported classed in G Production. You most likely know the guy as he is an active ITA 1st gen RX-7 racer. Nuff said....... The Fastrack response " Another level of prep is not consistant with the Production car philosophy" (political bull shit). & I don't want to hear about the 2293 cc because it is only 1146 cc. The motor is constantly saying to it's self why can't I have some torque. Torque get you there while hp keeps you there. & in the next breath THEY class the Hybird (full prep chassis/LP motor) after THEY said they wouldn't class any more full prep cars. First off the Hybird is a BREED which is half full prep & half LP including being another level of prep. As is so common it ain't who you know it's who you.....................

THEY saw the light with some rules in Spec Miata & reined them back in which is the same thing THEY should do with the LP/RS Production cars rules.

From ITA to Production would have been fun but the thing that ain't EVER going to change with the SCCA is the constant changing of the guard with the continious political bull shit.

Am currently building a Spec Miata........ Another potential Production car owner GONE.

[RSTPerformance]

Cherokee-

I agree to win in prod (or be top 5 when more than 5 cars show up ) one should have to prep to the prod levels (thus not be legal for IT). My comments simply are that an IT car should be legal to "play" in prod be it at the back or not without making any changes to the car. Same with SS -> IT and Prod -> GT. A smooooth transition is needed across the board.

Raymond

[gran racing]

A smooooth transition is needed across the board.[/b]

I agree. Think of it as a way for people to taste a different category and see if they like it more.

[kgobey]

Just some miscellaneous ramblings while I am bored listing to this conference call.

History: Production is the old IT and is what happens to IT when IT goes National. (just my opinion)

Problem: While the classes share genetics, they are different species.

Opportunities: To save Production might solve IT's most sensitive problem at the same time.

Tactic: Combine goals. Combine efforts. Combine the future of the 2 entities.

Areas of complication
Tires: They are dissimilar wheel and tire rules. This is an expensive problem. We'd need to align wheel and tire rules across the 2 entities.
Engines: The disparity of engine rules is an enormous canyon, there is noway to align these rule-sets. It's just not possible to ask a guy with a $25,000 Rx7 Engine to downgrade his car, neither is it possible to ask the "normal" IT racer to catch up either.
Body: This is easier to align. Glass, Interior, Cages, batteries, fuel delivery, fire systems, etc... And one biggie: Plastic = bad IMO ($$) and it would be hard to get IT racers to launch their future personal economic futures into a plastic race.

To get me into a Production Car.
1. Give me a fair chance to win
2. Make it "not scary". I.E. don't put me in with Spridgets... I can't see them. Don't out me in a class with car that can do 77 down the straights but 70 through the corners where I can do 120 down the straights but 50 through the turns, that's just f'n nuts.
3. Make the class structure make sense, don't put my ITA friends in a different class to me, we want to remain racing with similar cars and car types.
4. Welcome us... Don't "allow us into your club", it's just semantics but it's an important distinction. I am already "good" I don't need some guy thinking he's my big brother letting me play in his "better class" with "his" rules.
5. Accept the fact that a 2009 car will want to race in 2014 and that's going to screw the classes up - prepare in advance for this eventuality. Just because a guy has a car from 1959 does not mean he will necessarily be competitive against cars 50 years newer, and we need to prepare for this.

[seckerich]

Quit jerking around and finally fix the cage rules so an IT cage is legal in Prod. as is. I won't start the X bar debate because it is too stupid to waste time on. It was clarified in IT but not Production?? Mark me down as another that has a Spec Miata in process and will not play production again until it is fixed. Fix it now or die a slow death as other classes have.

[NutDriverRighty]

For me, a move towards it being a race of modern cars instead of a vintage car race would be a big boost. Not only for prod, but for all production-based classes. If I had the $ to go to prod, I would pass it by for some other class that isn't running 40+ year old LBCs. (begin the flaming now)

Scott Franklin
ITA/IT7 and SPU
F&C
www.NutDriver.org

[kgobey]

For me, a move towards it being a race of modern cars instead of a vintage car race would be a big boost. Not only for prod, but for all production-based classes. If I had the $ to go to prod, I would pass it by for some other class that isn't running 40+ year old LBCs. (begin the flaming now)

Scott Franklin
ITA/IT7 and SPU
F&C
www.NutDriver.org
[/b]

You know this is not an original issue... Guys born after 1985 (22) don't give a crap about a 1956 MGA.

[RacerBill]

I would run national races in production if I did not have to do anything to change my IT car from weekend to weekend, and if my car was classed.

IE:

1. Classify EVERY IT car into a class, don't require members to submit all the info on the car and a request... It sounds lame, but people are lazy and they don't want to do the work. If the car is classed and legal in another class then they will (might) come
2. Change IT or Prod rules to be similar in the areas of door window glass, headlights, etc so that cars can be legal in BOTH classes without making changes.
3. Allow production cars to race on DOT legal tires if they choose... I have to ask why isn't this legal? It is an obviose disadvantage.
4. Fuel Cell? While it is legal to have a fuel cell in an IT car, a lot of people don't. It needs to be revisited as to If one is needed especially for LP.
5. Fire System? Is this a rule? if so is it needed as well for LP?

Again if I could not change anything to my car and run in a production class then you would probably see me out a few times running in production (and no not in DP, lets at least have a chance to finish mid pack).
Raymond
[/b]

Yes, Yes, Yes

'Classify EVERY IT car into a class....' My car (83 Dodge Shelby) is already classed in FProd (LPrep) and EProd (FPrep), Class more cars like this!

'Change IT or Prod rules to be similar in the areas of door window glass, headlights, etc so that cars can be legal in BOTH classes without making changes....' Removing stuff only costs time (for the most part).

'Allow production cars to race on DOT legal tires if they choose... I have to ask why isn't this legal? It is an obviose disadvantage...' I thought this was already legal! GCR requires only the capacity to run certain sustained speed - IT adds the restriction of DOT approved.

Fuel Cell, Fire System, Cage... these requirements need to be revisited and rewritten with movement between IT and Prod.

[dickita15]

Class every IT car in a prod class with IT prep.
Make IT cages legal in prod (at least the welded ones).
Change headlights to may remove from shall remove.
Allow either DOT or slick tires.
I do not mind the windshield clips, fire system or even fuel cell (although I have seen more fires from bad fuel cell plumbing than EOM fuel systems).
Personally I would not mind if the weights are different in prod trim than IT, but other than that you would need to be able to build a car that can run either.

OR if you they don’t want to attract such riffraff suck it up and combine F, G & H Prod into Classic Prod so the 150 people who like current production racing will have a class to grow old in.

[RSTPerformance]

OR if you they don’t want to attract such riffraff suck it up and combine F, G & H Prod into Classic Prod so the 150 people who like current production racing will have a class to grow old in.
[/b]

lol That actually is a great idea...

Then make IT a national class and get rid of the entire "National & Regional event" system...

Raymond "Simple is sometimes A LOT better" Blethen

[Knestis]

"Make my IT car legal and competitive in Production and I'll run Production."

This baffles the crap outta me. That's an answer to a completely different question. It's not changing Production: It's making IT a National category.

At the end of the day, there will be a lot of talk (typing, anyway); nobody will agree (because we're all arguing about different things); and nothing will happen. The direction of the Production category is and will forever be in the hands of a limited number of folks with vested interests in the status quo. Make that the "stati quo" since they're protecting different positions and agenda.

How about club racing category hospice - "death with dignity?"

K

EDIT

What I am fishing for is things like $7000 trannys are crazy, 14:1 motors dont live very long, I am not an engineer so I don't want to move susp points around, rules not stable....whatever.[/b]

That's the stuff that makes a Prod car different than an IT car.

[cherokee]

Thanks for the feedback, I agree with most.

While I think there should be some difference between the classes, and it might take putting a fire system or buying wheels and slicks to give it a (faster,higher whatever you want to call it) class a try, I think that is not asking too much. The cage thing is just stupid. If a cage is legal on that X car in IT it should be legal in Prod, end of story.

Dave, I can see two sides to the argument, I see no reason why if we can have a Miata in two classes in Prod why we can't have the 7 in GP. The one thing I hate is these canned responses. I agree with you in saying BS. And answers like this just feed the perception or someone trying to protect their own turf. Here is a guy tha wants to run in GP (a class in trouble) and this is what they get when a new car is tried to be placed. A nother degree of prep, darn near every car in prod has a different level of prep.
I know you have been onthe prod site and have been in the discussion going on over there. I want to fix things. Let the powers at be know why you are not racing in production....the place you first wanted to go. And if you ever think of coming racing in production what it will take.

But on the other hand why did you not want to run the 7 where it is classed now? Is it the expense of prepping the car?

If one of the things to change was, if LP was truely LP would things be different?
If you could build your car with an engine that would last longer and be cheaper, but faster then in IT would things be different?
If things like one off trannies, moving susp points be outlawed would things be different?

If a prod car was an IT car with a little cam, little compression, better brakes, slicks..... would that change anyones mind.

As things are to go from a top IT car to a top Prod car is just too big a jump in time, money, prep level. I think it is beyond the reach of most racers, that and get the politics out of the rules and classing will go a long way.

[Dave Burchfield]

1. Create a rules set that is as consistent and well thought out as the IT rules set is.

2. Stop "tinkering" with the rules until a well thought out review on any change has been done with full disclosure and the membership has had sufficient opportunity to comment.

3. Develop an attitude of inclusion among the participants rather than one of exclusion.

I am sure that there are other thoughts, but I am just waking from a nap and still a bit sleepy........

[cherokee]

At the end of the day, there will be a lot of talk (typing, anyway); nobody will agree (because we're all arguing about different things); and nothing will happen. The direction of the Production category is and will forever be in the hands of a limited number of folks with vested interests in the status quo. Make that the "stati quo" since they're protecting different positions and agenda.

K

EDIT
That's the stuff that makes a Prod car different than an IT car.
[/b]

I think this may be the time for this to change, they are finally looking the shotgun in the face, some are running for the hills and saying "I QUIT"...there is a multi page thread over there Why I quit.

They may just now be seeing that the status quo is not working anymore, and things are going to have to change if they want to keep national status. And that is going to be painfull for some.

A prod car should be different then an IT car, its a DIFFERENT CLASS PEOPLE. Production is a class where you run slick tires, where you remove the lights, the ideas (if they let me run my IT car as is in prod with no changes are not realistic) Now if you want to meet all of the prod (fuel cell, lights, slicks...) with an IT susp, motor, tranny..... then I have no problem with that. But to ask your IT car to run in production with ZERO changes that I can't agree with.

What I think we need is a smaller divide between the two classes, things like $7000 trans and $25,000 motors need to slowly fade away.

[seckerich]

I could pick 10 IT cars in the southeast alone that are prepped to a level much higher than 90% of the prod cars. The cages are much stronger and safer than any prod cage. I built an EP second gen RX7 for testing and the specs changed 3 times while I was running (weight and trans penalties). Took the parts off and sold it as an ITS car and put the convertible tub away until I see some progress in rule stability. Cut out the back door good old boy deals and get some stable rules and I will come back in a minute. Alternative is the slow death you are watching now and my ITS car will soon be at the runoffs in your place. See how many members of the Production board will be watching the runoffs as their class will not be included this year until the last minute change relaxes the rules--hide and watch. I hope this is a wake up call to finally get something done.

[RSTPerformance]

A prod car should be different then an IT car, its a DIFFERENT CLASS PEOPLE. Production is a class where you run slick tires, where you remove the lights, the ideas (if they let me run my IT car as is in prod with no changes are not realistic) Now if you want to meet all of the prod (fuel cell, lights, slicks...) with an IT susp, motor, tranny..... then I have no problem with that. But to ask your IT car to run in production with ZERO changes that I can't agree with.

What I think we need is a smaller divide between the two classes, things like $7000 trans and $25,000 motors need to slowly fade away.
[/b]

I agree a winning Prod car should be a different car than an IT car, but realisticly if you want to save the class and/or get me into it you need to allow less prepped cars to be classed... It is VERY basic and fustrating that people like you who want change and want to "get the numbers up" are unwilling to allow or make an entry level for newbies interested in prod.

I started racing an Audi in IT back in 2000. The car was completely bone stock with exception to a role cage, a racing seat, a bit of "gutting" such as the carpet and what not and a cheep lowering kit that made the car look good more than perform better as with every kid in town on his/her street car (gheto sled). Over 6 years I have devolped the car (along with my brothers car) to be a full blown IT car. With the development we have put into them I have gained over 10 seconds a lap!!! If I wasn't teamed up with my brother developing/trying new things with one car then the other then I am 100% positive that I wouldn't be as fast as I am today, however I would still be as I am today trying to test new things and develope the car even more.

Production NEEDS to have a basic entry level that doesn't require such a high expence otherwise why move? I can race in IT with double the amount of people and with FAR less money. Racing is all about addiction to go faster and beat some new goal. You will suck a heck of a lot more people into Prod if they can do virtually nothing to thier IT cars get thier but handed to them but have the hope that if they convert the car and do A and B all the way through Z then they might have a chance at winning in prod.

I could have taken my Audi into prod instead of IT back in 2000 (well if it was classed) but I had to make a choice...

A: Spend a few thousand dollars for the required equipment to drive a less than IT developed car in production 15 or so seconds off the pace

or B: Spend a few thousand and develop my car to be a front running IT car.

Now I have two options:

A: continue compeating with a heck of a lot more competition spending my money on actually racing

or B: Spend a few thousand more to convert the car and try Prod running at the back.


SCCA has a major issue that other compeating organizations seem to have figured out... natural and smooth transitions that offers drivers/cars choices/options.

Good luck with your efforts. Unfortunalty I think kirk has the right idea, let em die

Raymond "I can't expalin what I mean worth shit on paper... lol" Blethen

PS: I am 100% for Prod cars having the ability to have $7,000 transmissions and 14:1 time bomb engines... that is what makes a WINNING prod car different than an IT car. Reality is though you can build a near showroom stock car to prod minimum rules that wouldn't stand a chance in IT let alone prod. Make some changes to the rules to allow IT cars to fill up the back of the fields.

What I think we need is a smaller divide between the two classes, things like $7000 trans and $25,000 motors need to slowly fade away.
[/b]

Sorry I have to try and keep pointing this out... As long as thier is a "divide" between the two classes that doesn't overlap top prep (winning) IT cars and low prep (loosing) prod cars then I don't understand why anyone in IT would even consider changing to the class... we are already in a far better organized and competitive class.

Raymond

[seckerich]

So out comes the July fastrack and the longest running "we're working on it" has finally arrived. Some sanity in cage rules across classes. That EP tub just might come down from storage. :026: