Brake Tech Rules

[benspeed]

If we conclude the heat sink is legal under the GCR and we get somebody to verify that from Topeka, I'm buying a set for the ITA car - the brakes on the Fiero are about as good as the disks on my kids atv.

[JeffYoung]

Ben, I've got 15" wheels on the way. Once they get here, I'm running the things until someone tells me I can't under the "brake pads are free" theory. I think there is a good faith basis for doing so.

I'll let you know if someone busts my chops.

[lateapex911]

If someone does, I'd let the protest fly if I were you. As long as the part comes out attached to the pads, you're fine.

The only issue I could see is the "performing an illegal function" clause, but it has to be argued that brake pads are made to shed heat in some manner, so you're only increasing an already approved function.

I would bet that even if the protest were upheld, would fall apart in appeals.

[ddewhurst]

***If someone does, I'd let the protest fly if I were you. As long as the part comes out attached to the pads, you're fine.

The only issue I could see is the "performing an illegal function" clause, but it has to be argued that brake pads are made to shed heat in some manner, so you're only increasing an already approved function.

I would bet that even if the protest were upheld, would fall apart in appeals.***

Gee, do ya think maybe someone needs to read ITCS 9.1.3.C. the 3rd paragraph.............. What don't some people understand about the word "exact equivalent"? "Brake pads" are unrestricted. Now try the glossary & look up the word/words Brake Lining/Pad. I expect MORE from people who are part of the rule making process for Improved Touring. You friken guys want to stretch the rules go play in a bigger pond. Look what has happened to Production cars over the last 40 years while THEY used the same mentality. MY car will not ___________ therefore lets strech rule _____________.

This is just as far out of control as the Spherical bearing.

[dickita15]

David, is it your thinking that the backing plate the friction material is bonded to is not part of the brake pad by definition and therefore must be an exact replacement rather than a unrestricted item.

That is actually not a bad argument, constant insults aside.

[Gary L]

The ITCS allows brake pads to be replaced, but someone needs to show me where it allows the addition of any sort of shim between the pad and the caliper, never mind a full blown heat sink. And if you argue that your stock brakes actually came with shims between the pad and the caliper, then the replacement shim (which is NOT part of the pad) must meet the criteria of the paragraph that David cites, because there is no allowance to do otherwise.

As for using the freebie brake system circuitry to pump fluid back into the master cylinder, please revisit the wording of that paragraph:

Brake system circuitry may be revised, but no modification or substitution of the original master cylinder, its location, or mounting is permitted</span>.[/b]

So... How are you going to get the fluid back into the master cylinder without modifying it?

[Chris Wire]

As for using the freebie brake system circuitry to pump fluid back into the master cylinder, please revisit the wording of that paragraph:

So... How are you going to get the fluid back into the master cylinder without modifying it?
[/b]

The brake recirculators I am familiar with do not plumb the return fluid back to the master cylinder. The line to the front calipers has a valve with 2 ports in it. One line feeds the caliper with pressure from the m/c, the other port is for the return, effectively creating a "loop" while never actually returning the fluid back to the master cyl. For cars like my ITS RX7, you would actually need 2 recirculators, since each front wheel has its own line off the master.

That&#39;s how.

[JeffYoung]

Chris is right on the recirc. You don&#39;t have to touch the m/c to make it work.

In fact, you can make an argument that all a recirc is is a big old speed bleeder in the line. They are the same -- on way check valves.

The arguments above about teh heat sinks are giving me some pause though. I can see the other side on this.

I guess the question is this -- does the "brake pads" are free rule mean that you can stuff anything in there that fits, or does it mean something else? I suspect the intent was to only allow different pad materials.....................however, it seems pretty hard to me to separate the backing pad from the lining even using the GCR definiton, which calls it "replaceable friction material" used to stop the car. I don&#39; t know bout you guys bug there have been times when my backing plates became friction material used to stop the car...lol....but in any event, they (the plates) are certainly replaceable.

The titanium shims can be modified to fit the pad almost like the original shims that were on my car, and almost all other cars as a anti-squeal device.

[Gary L]

Jeff - I was basing the master cylinder modification scenario on your description in post #4, where you clearly talked about taking brake fluid "... back to the master". If you don&#39;t mess with the master cylinder, then I have no problem with the free circuitry as described by Chris.

But I do have a problem with the shim-morphs-into-a-heat-sink stuff. This is not about trying to separate the pad backing plate from the friction material... there is no argument that both are part of a "pad", IMO. I&#39;m talking about a separate piece - a shim - being modified into, or replaced with, a device that is not a duplicate of what was there in the beginning.

[ddewhurst]

Dick, sometimes some of the people who are part of the IT rules process ride a little to tall in their saddle making them to far from the rule words so that they don&#39;t understand the words. Or don&#39;t care to. The words for replacement parts are very clear "exact equivalent" & when things are opened up for the brake pads the glossary is VERY clear as to what a brake pad is. Our 1st gen RX-7&#39;s came OEM with a specific coated heat sink shim between the brake pad steel backing & the caliper piston. That don&#39;t mean you may use a titanium or what have you material because it ain&#39;t "exact equivaint" heat sink shim material. & the heat sink shim material ain&#39;t part of the brake pad.

Glossary:

Brake Lining/Pad - Replaceable friction material which accomplishes braking action by making rubbing contact with the brake drum or rotor.

[JeffYoung]

And David, that&#39;s where your logic goes astray. Brake pad "material" is unrestricted. If the brake is defined to include the backing plate, you are wrong -- any thing attached to the backing plate is free.

Where Dick is right is whether there is a distinction between backing plate and pad material in the rule. If so, then you are probably required to use stock shims and nothing else. If the entire pad "assembly" is free, well then the assembly is free and anything that fits in the pad hole you can use.

I&#39;m not arguing about intent here, because I agree the intent back in 85 never envisioned something like this, like it never envisioned Motec, spherical bearings, etc. I&#39;m just telling you what the rule says, and what is arguably allowed under it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

a. Brake pads, brake linings, and brake fluid are unrestricted.

</span></span>

Was glad I wasn&#39;t getting into this one but this is NOT a simple &#39;replace&#39; according to the rule. With no provision to modify the caliper or rotor, you can seemingly do whatever you want to a pad that can fit in the stock set-up. Constant insults aside that is...(good one Dick!)

[bldn10]

I&#39;m not going to use the term "backing plate" because it is a defined term in the Glossary and we aren&#39;t using it as defined. The friction material is mounted on, say, a pad mount, and although strictly speaking the Glossary defines a brake pad as only the friction material itself, I suggest that the friction material + the pad mount = the brake pad. My 2nd Gen RX-7 came w/ a brake pad and 2 shims. I think that replacement of the OEM shims implicates the "exact equivalent" and you cannot add a heat sink in the guise of a shim. However, if someone manufactured a pad that had a pad mount w/ integral heat sink, I think that just might get by.

Just what I need - $400 brake pads!

[JeffYoung]

Bill, if you accept that the "pad" equals the friction material + the backing pad, then the barn door is wide open. As Andy points out, "pads" are unrestricted. So, stock, not stock, made only in Yugoslavia in 1952, whatever, if it is a brake pad and fits in the caliper hole, looks legal to me.

IF you accept "pad" as including the backing plate. That is where the gray area/issue is I think.

[ddewhurst]

9.1.3.D.6.a.

BRAKES

Brake pads, brake linings, and brake fluid are unrestricted.

***Glossary:

Brake Lining/Pad - Replaceable friction material which accomplishes braking action by making rubbing contact with the brake drum or rotor.***

I&#39;ll only say this one LAST time. BRAKE PADS are FREE. Can you people understand what brake pads are when you read the previously stated rule? By glossary defination the "brake pad" is the REPLACEABLE friction material......................................... Put whatever type REPLACEABLE friction material you like on the steel material the carries the REPLACEABLE friction material but the steel carrier of the REPLACEABLE friction material SHALL be an "exact equivalent" to the OEM steel carrier of the REPLACEABLE friction material.

Read the rules as they are written & not for what you wish they were to staisfy your needs. After reading this post do any one of you really believe that the steel carrier of the REPLACEABLE friction material is what the GCR calls the brake pad? It don&#39;t matter what you tell the parts store guy you want to buy, it&#39;s what the rules spec a brake pad is that counts.

***you can seemingly do whatever you want to a pad that can fit in the stock set-up.***

Andy, you want in, I have a question directed to you alone. In your above sentence what is this thing you call a "pad". Is that a brake pad per the GCR glossary or is that a brake pad as in when you talk to a parts supplier ? Each meaning is different.

[Gary L]

Bill, if you accept that the "pad" equals the friction material + the backing pad, then the barn door is wide open. As Andy points out, "pads" are unrestricted. So, stock, not stock, made only in Yugoslavia in 1952, whatever, if it is a brake pad and fits in the caliper whole, looks legal to me.

IF you accept "pad" as including the backing plate. That is where the gray area/issue is I think. [/b]

It is not a gray issue IMO, because it really doesn&#39;t matter whether you accept "pad" as something beyond the friction material itself, or not. The allowance is... unrestricted pad material.

This does not allow you to change the shape or dimension of anything, and it certainly does not allow you to add a "shim" where there wasn&#39;t one, never mind a heat sink.

[Chris Wire]

I could argue each side of this and probably win both arguements!

But alas, I don&#39;t intend to use them so why waste my breath (errrr....typing skills?)

Jeff, use them if you like, you&#39;ll get a pass from me on &#39;em.

Carry on.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

I could argue each side of this and probably win both arguements!

[/b]

I agree 100%. The pad material can not &#39;float&#39; without the backing plate in which it is bonded. Arguements could be made either way IMHO.

[JeffYoung]

Same here. I see both sides. I think that the "for" position - based on the idae that you can&#39;t have a "pad" without a backing plate -- is strong enough that I can try this until someone gets a ruling saying i can&#39;t.

Interesting that the item I thought the most questionable, the recirculator, is probably the most technically legal.

[Ron Earp]

Out of all the things discussed a titanium insulator plate in the guise of a shim is the most suspect. I think that shim has to be as OEM, no questions on that one.

I think one can definitely make an argument for the heat sinks on the brake pad - especially if one bonds or rivets the heat sink to the brake pad backing plate, thereby making it all on piece. If I were using these I&#39;d make sure my heat sinks were physically attached to the backing plate, not just in contact with them the way they were designed. If done without physical attachement to me it is a separate part and not part of the "pad", if pad is to include backing plate and pad material.

On the other hand, I can also see where a protest could get a ruling that says brake pad material is free, all that other stuff isn&#39;t.