Brake Tech Rules

[Joe Harlan]

Dave you prove my point......The fact is you need more FIBER in your daily diet.....That will fix the issue you have with not understanding the SCCA langauge. Forget all the shit you use to stop yourself from getting a car done and get out there and race. BUY OE pads if you like and protest everyone in the house and you will get the answer short of that my friend I will continuw to sell and use HAWK pads that fit into my stock caliper and are covered by the FMSI book for fitment.

[ddewhurst]

***I just type like a pompous ass!***

Ok, I'll buy that. I know your better than some of the stuff you type.

***http://www.saveclubracing.com***

Have you saved club racing yet Joe?

Joe, with reference to the race cars there are two parts to racing. The journey (building) & the event (racing). I enjoy both parts. There is a 3rd part to racing BUT someone told me we can&#39;t talk about Topeka. <_<

[lateapex911]

David, if i read your post correctly, you are stating that the friction material is distinct from the backing plate, and the material is free, but the backing plate is not. Is that correct?

You also state that you have sent (or could) pads out for reapplication of friction material onto the stock backing plate. Thats a known option, as some compaies provide that service with their material.

Now, the question I have is, how do you know that the backing plate you send is the exact correct one?

What if...it has a large registration tab...and others available for the same car do not. Since that extra material could sink more heat, (yes, we&#39;re splitting hairs here, but thats what this thread has become), would you then chose the smaller plates? Or? See the issue? How do we know what stock really is, since so many pads don&#39;t match each other.

And...........where do we draw the line???

[Joe Harlan]

***I just type like a pompous ass!***

Ok, I&#39;ll buy that. I know your better than some of the stuff you type.

***http://www.saveclubracing.com***

Have you saved club racing yet Joe?

Joe, with reference to the race cars there are two parts to racing. The journey (building) & the event (racing). I enjoy both parts. There is a 3rd part to racing BUT someone told me we can&#39;t talk about Topeka. <_<
[/b]

Sounds like a fine peyote dream....... Clearly Dave you are loosing the argument when you go to all the outside stuff....;( Oh and the third thing....yep a really good time but table dances cost more than a set of tires by the time the night is over...

[Chris Wire]

(yes, we&#39;re splitting hairs here, but thats what this thread has become)
[/b]

Where&#39;s the &#39;monkey-throwing-shit-bombs&#39; smiley? THAT&#39;S what this thread has become!

1. I think the language in the GCR glossary needs clarification.
2. I think Dave should write some paper on illegal brake backing plates.
3. I think the stewards will disallow the protest (shortly after making cuckoo-cuckoo-cuckoo noises).
4. I think Dave should appeal the ruling to the COA.
5. I think the COA will uphold the steward&#39;s decision, refunding Dave&#39;s money less the amount held by SCCA for a well-founded protest.
6. We will then have an official ruling on whether or not backing plates are INDEED part of the defined &#39;brake pad&#39;. Which is where the majority of us are already.

or.....

7. We can just go race some fricken&#39; cars around the track all weekend and have some fun!

[ddewhurst]

Joe, clear the table of ALL the BS & answer the following question with a YES or a NO.

Is it correct that you believe that the replaceable friction material may be secured to a backing plate of unrestricted material ?


Jake, as I have stated IMHU of the "Brake Pad" written rule/written glossary the replaceable friction material is unrestricted. The backing plate today SHALL be steel. The backing plate that I send for a new pad will be one that I had procured through a normal parts outlet store & I&#39;ll let Chris protest my backing plate because he seems to have his pantys all wound up over a brake pad protest. I never said a dam thing about protesting anyones brakes.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, clear the table of ALL the BS & answer the following question with a YES or a NO.

Is it correct that you believe that the replaceable friction material may be secured to a backing plate of unrestricted material ?
Jake, as I have stated IMHU of the "Brake Pad" written rule/written glossary the replaceable friction material is unrestricted. The backing plate today SHALL be steel. The backing plate that I send for a new pad will be one that I had procured through a normal parts outlet store & I&#39;ll let Chris protest my backing plate because he seems to have his pantys all wound up over a brake pad protest. I never said a dam thing about protesting anyones brakes.
[/b]

Brake Lining/Pad - Replaceable friction material which accomplishes braking action by making rubbing contact with the brake drum or rotor.[/b]

David, All Bullshit aside. If the definition only said lining then I might buy you argument but it sayd PAD and buy automotive standards the pad is the complete brake part as delivered from the factory. The PAD is BTW the replaceable portion in a disk brake assembly. The Lining in years past was actually what you replaced on the shoe BTW and most shops and certified techs were able to do that in house. When I got my master tech cert you had to at least know the process on relining and arcing shoes to get your brake badge. So sir not only can I talk the talk but I have been certified to walk the walk. If this protest were brought to my it would be handled with the following rule:


It is expected that protests shall be reasonable, logical, and based on sound evidence, thus well-founded. A well-founded protest shall further be defined as one upon which reasonable men or women may differ. A protest may be well-founded even if not upheld.

A. Forfeiture of Protest FeeIf a protest is judged to be not well-founded, the protest fee shall be forfeited.

B. Vexatious or Bad Faith Protests
A protestor who has acted in bad faith or in a vexatious manner may be penalized by the SOM.

In my court you would be subject to what is colored in red. We can agree that if I build backing plates with wings to fit the stock hole that I have made a legal part perform an illegal function and it would be my bad.

Oh and to answer your y or n question the answer is yes....and I don&#39;t like it but the fact is if I want to stop on titanium after I go through the HT10 compound it would be legal.No rule can stop me from using metal to stop my car even if it isn&#39;t as good as carbon....

It&#39;s been fun ladies but I have a race car to prep so I can actually get some track time this year...

[ddewhurst]

***Oh and to answer your y or n question the answer is yes....***

Joe, you just said all you needed to say..............

Ok folks per Joe & HIS court you may all use an unrestricted material for your backing plate. just gave you a gift.

Nuff on this subject for me.

[Chris Wire]

I&#39;ll let Chris protest my backing plate because he seems to have his pantys all wound up over a brake pad protest. I never said a dam thing about protesting anyones brakes.
[/b]

No panties in a wad here, Dave, I&#39;m goin&#39; COMMANDO!!!

And if you recall, I told Jeff earlier to go ahead and run the shims because he wouldn&#39;t have to worry about any action out of me over them, so your characterization of the condition of my panties is false.

It&#39;s pretty clear that there are only two things that are going to change your mind, and they are a correction/clarification of definition in the GCR glossary and a COA ruling on appeal of a protest. So you can sit around and wait for a definition change, or you can write paper, let it run through the process, and get a binding result that way. Take your pick.

Or, you and Joe can sling crap back and forth until someone gets bored enough to go out to the shop and actually work on the race car, that someone being me. I&#39;m out.

[cchandler]

Brake cooling ducts are allowed. Heat sinks - errr not really. To say that "my car&#39;s brakes won&#39;t make it thru a race" is not a valid excuse for what may, or may not, be an illegal modification. Seems to me that the problem is not the brakes themselves or cooling - it is the driver&#39;s failure to properly manage the brakes that are available. If a car&#39;s weakness is its brakes, perhaps the driver needs to modify their driving technique to still have brakes at the end of the race. Obviously, all cars have strengths and weaknesses. Properly managing the car&#39;s assets is most rewarding.

[Greg Amy]

NERDS!
[/b]

Werd.

[evanwebb]

By the way, a shim is not really a heat "sink". A heat sink is some thing you can put a significant amount of heat into for storage. A shim is way too small to store much heat, and besides you can&#39;t get around the laws of thermaodynamics and whatever heat you put into the sink has to come back out again anyway, so you are right back where you started, needing to manage the heat.

In the context of talking about a shim between the brake pad and the piston to block heat going into the piston (and hence caliper and fluid), well that would actually be an "insulator", and you want the shim to have very low thermal conductivity. You may be creating a "pad fade" situation or overheated rotor where previously you did not have one since (assuming that the insulator actually works) now all the heat is staying in the pad and rotor.

If you are talking about the big winged shim then you are attempting to use the shim as a heat pipe and a radiator. In that case you want the shim to have low thermal conductivity to the piston but high conductivity to the radiator area, so the shim should probably be some kind of laminated construction...

Not discussing legality here, just some relevant engineering ideas... :-)


Who says you need backing plates anyway? I&#39;ll bet there&#39;s a metal-matrix composite material where the entire pad would be consumable... The trick would be getting the coefficient of friction you want... Does anyone know if the pads in the F1-style carbon-carbon brakes have backing plates?

[Scooter]

OMG I can&#39;t believe I just read all that crap and nobody seemed to mention the most relevant part about the heat-sink dealies.

Those backing plates are for noise or spacing or whatever. They don&#39;t dissipate heat in their stock form. The rules clearly state that you can&#39;t make something do something other than its intended purpose no matter what.

There never was a heat-sink there. You can&#39;t add one. Just like I can&#39;t add a giant wing onto my rear-view mirror just because mirrors are "free".

You can take it out. (Assuming it&#39;s part of the brake pad.) You can change it, you can make it as expensive as you want. As long as it serves its intended purpose. Which is NOT cooling the brakes.

[JeffYoung]

Respect your opinion, but you are missing the point. Brake pads are unrestricted. The argument -- and I agree it is just an argument - is that anything you can shove in the caliper hole is therefore unrestricted.

The prohibited function argument doesn&#39;t fly because of the clear "it says you can" when it comes to brake pads.

[seckerich]

Damn--I just spent all that time prepping for Barber and now I have to get out the belt sander and some super glue. I sure hope it dries on those stock backing plates before I leave. 5 pages of mental masturbation was a little fun to read tonight--thanks.

[JeffYoung]

Glad to be of service! So to speak....

See you down there Steve.

[seckerich]

It&#39;s also fun to know that Kirk is chewing his fingers off to keep from getting in this one. See you at Barber.

[ddewhurst]

***It&#39;s also fun to know that Kirk is chewing his fingers off to keep from getting in this one.***

Come on K. lets have your understanding of what a brake pad is........... That NERDS stuff don&#39;t cut it. Your understanding of the rules/glossary is just that. I ain&#39;t doing any more on this subject because I can live ok with my understanding of the rules/glossary.

I did talk with one of the arguers of the brake pad topic at the Sprints & being that he didn&#39;t bring up the topic I left it alone.

[Renaultfool]

Back in the day I used Velvitouch linings on my Pinto. I believe that I had them made by Rochester Brake and Clutch in Rochester NY. The attachment method for the metalic pad material to the steel backing plate was TIG welding. I guess they were full metalic.

OK, Free Tip #1.
Most brake pad tapered wear is because the pad backing plates have not been deburred. The steel backing plate to which the friction material is attached is usually a stamping. If you look closely at a stamping there is a rounded side, the side the die struck, and a sharp side. You should take a file and take the sharp edges off the area of the pad backing plate where it transfers the torque to the caliper bracket.
The caliper it&#39;s self does not usually take this torque and transfer it through the caliper sliding pins or whatever other attachment method your car uses. Brake torque would shear off most guide pins if you think about it.
Generally somewhere the pad backing plate rests on the caliper bracket. Under brake actuation the loaded end of the pad digs in and does not slide. The other end is free, so it moves in, so most of your wear in a taper situation will be on the leading edge of the pad. Draw a line on your rotor and turn it as it would turn under normal use and the edge of the pad the line hits first is the leading edge and will wear the most if this is your problem.

Renault uses a phenolic piston, so no heat transfer, no problem. NAPA premium pads, Castrol LMA fluid changed sometime in the past three or four years, no brake fade, great brakes. Viva la France!