Pocono Mechanical Protest

[RacerBill]

I, too, am sad to hear of these events. I don't like the fact that people think so little of their fellow competitors that they can circumvent the rules (the rules are what they are, and we need to live by them or attempt to change them by correct procedures). I am not pleased that someone felt that they could not continue with the club (but that is their problem, and they seem to have brought it on all by themselves).

I am, however very relieved that our system works. And that we have many more members with very high integrity who persued the issue in a very sportsman-like way. The end result, that a car that was prepared way beyond the limits of the rules has been at least temporarily removed from competition. The actions of the protestors were conducted in the highest standards of our sport. I am proud to be associated, even if only distantly with them.

Sorry it had to come to this, but I guess that in order to keep our sport clean, a little vacuming is necessary every once in a while.

I do have two concerns with the aftermath, not with the protest, but with the after action process.

1) If the protest etc. is not appealed, no one outside of this forum will ever know about it for future reference.

2) The protest was firstly against the car, and secondly against the driver/entrant. Was the protest and the results noted in the logbook? Was the logbook pulled? If this is not part of the process, should it be?

My concern is that sometime down the road, this car gets sold, as is, and some poor driver who was not told the truth about its preparation could be stuck with the same questionable parts.

Having information about the vehicle recorded and requiring a full annual inspection per GCR 5.9.2 A (which states "A full and complete Technical and Safety Inspection" would preclude this vehicle from returing to competition in its present state.

Again, my concern here is for someone who might innocently purchase this car.

But, anyway. Thanks to those who uphold our sport. I am looking forward so much to meeting you all in August.

[lateapex911]

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, what were you thinking!? Come talk to me before you sign your name to the protest sheet the next time, LOL.

Kiddding, you guys know where I stand on issues like this. For your sake, I'm glad it went down the way it did. There are a lot of variables that can occur, and this way is pretty clean. Plus, it's a lot more work than you'd think for the protester.

For the rest of us, I imagine we'd have rather seen it go through, just out of curiousity.

And for those who aren't part of the series, the only reason this car hasn't been torn down years ago, was as Dave said, it rarely made it to the finish line. Lately thats been changing a bit, and he actually set a track record.

The other reason is that a protest against this car is a bit like shooting at a moving target...you never know what configuration it will be in on the weekend you choose to make your move. He actually brought the car down to the ARRCs one year, and he was either having prblems, or he'd changed back to stock stuff, as he barely eased away from me on the straight...and most ITA cars fly by my 7 on that straight.

Glad it worked out ...Pocono was a smart choice of tracks to do it at.

[Gtracer15]

Also, a couple of things happened, somewhat unexpected, that I didn't like and I wanted to pass along.
In the end, though, I'm left to simultaneously wonder if he ever was legal, and bemoan the loss of a good ITA competitor.
I'm really sorry it came to that.
Greg
[/b]

Brian, we had planned this protest in advance of the event. We'd tried talking to Windell last year about our suspicions, but the discussions quickly turned into defensive posturing and were unproductive.
We'd decided well in advance to take this course of action; it had nothing to do with his qualifying position (nor should it...)
[/b]

This particular car, while it doesn't win everywhere, it holds at least one track record that I know of and has shown surprising 'bursts of speed' at odd times while on track. Illegal items on the EXTERIOR of the car added to the suspicion of items not easily seen.

The potest was written well in advance and done so in a sportsman like manner thanks to Greg's professionalism. While he did predict the outcome (withdraw, fine and suspension) I think all of us were dissapointed in it. I KNOW a protest sucks. I KNOW it is inconvienent.
While I will speculate privately why Windell withdrew without allowing anyone to look at the car, it still leaves me empty because I didn't really find out what I wanted to know.

I think while the process 'worked', it still leaves me empty because we have lost a racer - but one who never wanted to be found IMHO. I wish him the best of luck and would welcome him back should he decide to prove his legality.
[/b]

I think Greg and Andy summed it up right there and yes, there is quite a bit of disappointment to go around today. There is no way at this point for anyone to know whether Windells car was legal or illegal. We can all speculate and speculate even more, and then speculate some more about this in the next few days but that WILL not change anything. We will never know. The other piece to this is whenever the #24 showed up for an event, the top runners knew that had to be on their A game. Sadly, as Greg indicated, he and the other top runners will never have another opportunity to take a "shot" at the #24 in ITA.

I was not there at Pocono this past weekend (prior personal committments) however, what is clear to me is that the planned witch hunt for the #24 car finally paid off. The years of planning the #24 hunt paid off in a really big way. Probably even better than anyone would have called it as, it was predicted that he (Windell) would withdraw, take the fine and suspension. Windell is no longer a threat in the ITA class and things will go back to "normal"...at least until the next "threat" emerges. I am left to wonder if Richard is next on the radar screen and plans are being made for him as well......but then again, he does not attend as many events and is therefore is usually not a threat for a championship.

Windell's withdrawal from SCCA altogether is not about being legal or illegal. Had he being a back runner finishing an occasional top 5 or so, this would be a non issue as we would be discussing an entirely different event from this past weekend. Feel free to discuss the illegal "EXTERIOR" parts Andy referred to, or the missing water bottle, or the letters Jake indicated he received containing part and part numbers that Windell had installed in his car/motor. This is pure speculation unless of course someone had/has x-ray vision. Part numbers would be extremely difficult and IMO impossible to obtain from a motor which had not being opened. Better yet, let's not forget to speculate about the weekend at Limerock where "someone" happened to pass by the #24 (while the valve cover was off) and by a casual glance only, was able to tell that the head contained "illegal" parts. Keep in mind his car went thru tech each and every time, impound each and everytime and passed. While this is not a cheap shot at the tech officials, EITHER, his car was deemed LEGAL during tech/impound after a race or our tech staff is a bunch of (insert your preference).

It is also unfortunate that Windell was found to be "unsociable". If I know/knew someone was constantly dogging me out, I would not readily smile and laugh with him/her/them. Great job dogging #24 enough to make him quit. Persistence pays of when it 10 against 1. Court was held and decided on in advance.....Kinda like the folks who are found guilty in courts, locked up and 10 years later DNA evidence emerges to prove them innocent.....At the time we were all sure they were guilty as charged. If we want them bad enough, we will find a way to get them....end of story. Believe me, I am just as disappointed to see him go.

[JLawton]

I think Greg and Andy summed it up right there and yes, there is quite a bit of disappointment to go around today. There is no way at this point for anyone to know whether Windells car was legal or illegal. We can all speculate and speculate even more, and then speculate some more about this in the next few days but that WILL not change anything. We will never know. The other piece to this is whenever the #24 showed up for an event, the top runners knew that had to be on their A game. Sadly, as Greg indicated, he and the other top runners will never have another opportunity to take a "shot" at the #24 in ITA.

I was not there at Pocono this past weekend (prior personal committments) however, what is clear to me is that the planned witch hunt for the #24 car finally paid off. The years of planning the #24 hunt paid off in a really big way. Probably even better than anyone would have called it as, it was predicted that he (Windell) would withdraw, take the fine and suspension. Windell is no longer a threat in the ITA class and things will go back to "normal"...at least until the next "threat" emerges. I am left to wonder if Richard is next on the radar screen and plans are being made for him as well......but then again, he does not attend as many events and is therefore is usually not a threat for a championship.

Windell's withdrawal from SCCA altogether is not about being legal or illegal. Had he being a back runner finishing an occasional top 5 or so, this would be a non issue as we would be discussing an entirely different event from this past weekend. Feel free to discuss the illegal "EXTERIOR" parts Andy referred to, or the missing water bottle, or the letters Jake indicated he received containing part and part numbers that Windell had installed in his car/motor. This is pure speculation unless of course someone had/has x-ray vision. Part numbers would be extremely difficult and IMO impossible to obtain from a motor which had not being opened. Better yet, let's not forget to speculate about the weekend at Limerock where "someone" happened to pass by the #24 (while the valve cover was off) and by a casual glance only, was able to tell that the head contained "illegal" parts. Keep in mind his car went thru tech each and every time, impound each and everytime and passed. While this is not a cheap shot at the tech officials, EITHER, his car was deemed LEGAL during tech/impound after a race or our tech staff is a bunch of (insert your preference).

It is also unfortunate that Windell was found to be "unsociable". If I know/knew someone was constantly dogging me out, I would not readily smile and laugh with him/her/them. Great job dogging #24 enough to make him quit. Persistence pays of when it 10 against 1. Court was held and decided on in advance.....Kinda like the folks who are found guilty in courts, locked up and 10 years later DNA evidence emerges to prove them innocent.....At the time we were all sure they were guilty as charged. If we want them bad enough, we will find a way to get them....end of story. Believe me, I am just as disappointed to see him go.
[/b]

Who are you??? It makes it a lot easier to accept your comments when there is a name attached to them.........

[benspeed]

This protest was a great example of competitors recognizing some real inconsistencies in performance that resulted in valid questions on the legality of the #24 car. I hate to have the thoughtful actions of some dedicated racers and competitors characterized as a witch hunt - these guys really did do the process right on a personal approach and rules approach by first speaking to the racer in about the questionable performance, monitoring the cars performance and telling the competitor that he is likely going to be protested. When it happened Windell opted to pack up and go - behavior that may be construed as guilty or somebody really feeling put out, isolated and unwilling to have his car torn down and then the work to put it together. The behavior lends itself to forming strong opinions - but that's it. I am not defending Windell by any means -I think he should have manned up to having the tear down. Sucks that nobody really will know.

I will say that I always spoke with Windell at the track and found him a competitve and quiet guy with a solid team that turned out to race at many tracks. He's wasn't going out of his way to be a social guy but when I sat down to eat dinner with him (uninvited - this was at the Glen two years ago when the cheater speculation was hot and he took track record) I was welcomed and enjoyed speaking with him and his crew. They felt like the club was out for them and they had no support. We did lose a competitor and that's a shame. I wonder if people would have thought more of him as a racer if he agreed to the tear down and was proven to be illegal - take his licks and penalties and come back to race legally and properly reprimanded or would people think more of him packing up and quitting SCCA.

I know what I think about that. Maybe Chad Knaus might have something to say too. He seems to have recovered after being proven a cheater. And will likely get some extra attention at tech for the rest of his career.

Question - has any competitor proven a cheat by tech come back to race and earn back respect? I haven't heard of ITA Shane Huffman (?) ever coming back to race and that is the only person I've heard of in the NE regional program proven to be illegal by teardown in my brief 7 years racing.

[gran racing]

Keep in mind his car went thru tech each and every time, impound each and everytime and passed. [/b]

Yeah, it's really tough to pass the weight inspection.

Keep in mind my comments and thoughts about this protest are from someone in an entirely different class.

People spend way to much time and money to make their cars fast legally. Does it upset people if someone else takes short cuts and cheats? You better believe it does. Windell has never been shy about his toughts on the importance (or lack thereof) of cars being legal for IT.

Windell's withdrawal from SCCA altogether is not about being legal or illegal. [/b]

The next six months is. He choose not to prove his car was illegal although had the opportunity to do so. Is someone protests me in a fair way, then so be it and I get a free engine rebuild out of the deal. This was far from a witch hunt.

By the way, who did you say you are again?

[zracre]

Most people on here would be happy and flattered to get protested! I have heard people say stuff about me and wait anticipating a teardown of some sort excitedly! A protest is more of a compliment if you are not cheating. If you are cheating then the defensiveness and crying starts. If it was something simple to overlook or the owner didn't notice, then I would think someone would have told him. If it is blatant outright cheating and he gets mad when approached about it...expect someone to throw papers. If he is doing it for fun then there are other classes. Rules are rules and we all must follow.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Feel free to discuss the illegal "EXTERIOR" parts Andy referred to...[/b]

I refuse to get into any mud-slinging - especially with someone who is not willing to post their name in a response. I suspect you won't even in future posts.

I WILL however address the comments directed to me specifically. Last year at this same event, the #24 car had an aluminum "L-shaped" strip pop-riveted at the rear-most part of the factory rear spoiler. I don't know any better how to describe it other than to say it looked very much like a mini-version of what you would see on a NASCAR short track setup. Clearly illegal. I asked his crew guys what it was, got no response - and coincidentally it was gone the second day. Oh ya, the second day of that weekend he finished in the top 3 and was 100lbs underweight and was DQ'd. The word was that he didn't know the weight on his car changed - and I believe that - because I don't beleive he has any interest in the rulebook.

The video I speak of is one from a Watkins Glen event where Windell is chasing the lead ITA car (not from NER). He chases for half the race and then, suddenly, he puts 10 car lengths on the leader between T1 and the chicane. I got the video in the mail asking if I knew anything about the car because it was unbelievable. This type of circumstantial evidence just adds to the perception and rumor. As far as this weekend, a casual glance showed his front airdam WELL below legal limits...but that was my own personal viewpoint and one to be verified by the tech guys. A protest is the only way to settle this stuff. It will never be known 100% why he refused to be torn down, take a fine and get a 6-month suspension. But I think it is reasonable to think that instead of standing tall and proving his legality, he chose to not allow anyone to see. That speaks volumes to me and eveyone who has asked me about this.

The witch hunt comments are obviously sour grapes. Last year, Greg and Joe 'manned up' and approached Windell about the perception of his car. As Greg has mentioned, things quickly deteriorated and nothing was accomplished. That was Windell's opportunity to talk about the issues which he neglected to take.

I am sorry he feels slighted in any way but this was a perfect opportunity to shove it right back up our a$$es by allowing a teardown and being found legal. I wonder why he didn't do that....

[R2 Racing]

I am sorry he feels slighted in any way but this was a perfect opportunity to shove it right back up our a$$es by allowing a teardown and being found legal. I wonder why he didn't do that....
[/b]

Seriously. If you really do feel like you're nothing more than the target of a witch hunt by a "clique" you're not allowed to be a part of (and having met Greg, Joe, and Jeff, that's BS), a tailor made perfect "Shove it up your a$$!" opportunity like this doesn't come along very often. I'd like to think that anyone who had nothing to hide would've relished that opportunity; especially when any costs accociated with the tear down would've then been completely covered.

[7racing]

never-mind.

[benspeed]

I tell anybody who will listen - you get one reputation in life and they don't grow back...

[lateapex911]

It is also unfortunate that Windell was found to be "unsociable". If I know/knew someone was constantly dogging me out, I would not readily smile and laugh with him/her/them. Great job dogging #24 enough to make him quit. Persistence pays of when it 10 against 1. Court was held and decided on in advance.....Kinda like the folks who are found guilty in courts, locked up and 10 years later DNA evidence emerges to prove them innocent.....At the time we were all sure they were guilty as charged. If we want them bad enough, we will find a way to get them....end of story. Believe me, I am just as disappointed to see him go.


[/b]

This isn't even remotely sensible or logical! He didn't leave because his feelings were hurt! Pulleeeze! He left because he made a call in his head, that opening up to the protest would be more expensive, in whatever terms that mattered to him, (money, time, reputation, whatever) than taking a 6 month suspension.

He was warned...and fairly so. That's "Dogging him out??" That's funny! If I were showing up, running like a freight train one day, and a dog the next, or fast on one lap then slow on another, and setting track records...and somebody said something about it to me, I'd either:
A- Have a darn good reason for my odd behaivior,
OR
B- I'd go home, straighten up my stuff and make darn sure I was squeaky clean.


The REAL bottom line here is that he didn't want to respect the written rules that everyone else abides by. And if you tell me I'm "Doggin him out" by recognizing that, well so be it.

Court was NOT held and decided in advance! Where do you come up with that!?? Nobody goes to the trouble to write a protest unless they really are darn sure the car is illegal. But .....the protester doesn't "Decide" the case. Heck, illegal cars squeak through protests because the protest was improperly written. The judge is the Steward, and the Steward made no ruling on this in advance, as far as I know.

DNA evidence?? Please...lets come up with something a bit more practical. We'll never know exactly which items on the list would have beeen found noncompliant, because the evidence is now useless,...it's not like DNA...once it's out of the control of the Stewards, it's toast. All we have to go on is the actions of the parties involved, and there aren't many innocent people who, after being "dogged out", wouldn't have LOVED to get protested and stick it in these guys faces.

I know what I think about that. Maybe Chad Knaus might have something to say too. He seems to have recovered after being proven a cheater. And will likely get some extra attention at tech for the rest of his career.

Question - has any competitor proven a cheat by tech come back to race and earn back respect? I haven't heard of ITA Shane Huffman (?) ever coming back to race and that is the only person I've heard of in the NE regional program proven to be illegal by teardown in my brief 7 years racing.

[/b]

I think NASCAR, and Pro Racing in general, is much different than club racing. In Pro racing, the officials are charged with ensuring compliance. In club racing WE are charged with that task, and the officials serve US upon request, to render judgements.

We are an honor society, in essence, and cheating is seen as an act of betrayal to your fellow competitior. In Pro racing, it's understood that you try whatever you can and if you get away with it, you've one upped the officials. Much different philosophies, in my opinion.

Shane (Hawthorne) has come back to race, but unfortunately he's been dogged with mechanical issues. I heard...but it was second hand, that his motor blew on one occasion, and something happend on a second race, but thats all I've heard. Oh, and he got married, I think, so that might be keeping him busy, (and broke, LOL)

[JLawton]

I am left to wonder if Richard is next on the radar screen and plans are being made for him as well......but then again, he does not attend as many events and is therefore is usually not a threat for a championship.

[[/b]

Richard who??

[benspeed]

We are an honor society, in essence, and cheating is seen as an act of betrayal to your fellow competitior. In Pro racing, it's understood that you try whatever you can and if you get away with it, you've one upped the officials. Much different philosophies, in my opinion.

Excellent point - honor vs. big stakes gamesmanship with the tech guys.

Looks like even Jr. will be getting some penalties for illegal mounts on his COT wing.

[lateapex911]

Richard who??
[/b]

Good point Jeff! The only Richard I can think of in the class is Richie...and he was a member of the 5 involved in the Hawthorn protest.

Which brings up anpother point. I can't speak for these four guys, but the post above seems to indicate that this was a gang up. I doubt it was for the reasons implied. Protests of this nature are often done by a group, as it's a very good way to share the expenses, which can be significant.

And....was Windell actually a threat for the championship? And does that matter? If someone feels that my car isn't legal...that I've done something either maliciously or not, I want them to get resolution ....whether I "matter" to the big picture or not.

(Of course, I'd appreciate it if they imformed/asked me about their issues first, just as was done in this case, .)

[seckerich]

People spend huge amounts of time and money to develop a fast car that wins legal. If someone else cheats to beat you they are stealing--plain and simple. One warning to get it right and then protest. Great job of doing the right thing for the class.

[Greg Amy]

...the planned witch hunt for the #24 car finally paid off.[/b]

To carry that analogy to its logical conclusion, in our case "the witch" committed suicide by running and jumping into the fire the moment she heard someone scream the accusation, long before any trial was convened...and we didn't even get to see if she floated...

GA

[JeffYoung]

Was she lighter than a duck?

[dickita15]

Who are you??? It makes it a lot easier to accept your comments when there is a name attached to them.........
[/b]

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=9867

[lateapex911]

Well, well, well, isn't THAT a perfect bit of irony?

Wonder if he ever sold the car with the ...err...nevermind.