Death of a championship

[dickita15]

Gee I really did not think it was all that personal. Must be my lack of tact. Damn internet.

Jeff, your suggestion has merit and has been talked about. The upside is that it reduces the risk to any one region and does not pit one against the other. The down side is fiscal responsibility for a well run event is hard to define and the loss of competition may not be good for the racers in the end.

[gran racing]

I didn't think we were getting personal; we just have different opinions which isn't a bad thing. Since I'll be begging Dick to tech my car for a new log book once ready, I don't want to piss him off too much. Additional people do need to get more involved, including myself. It just would be nice to begin wading into the water before making the jump in the deep end. Back to the NARRC stuff.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And second, decisions are made by those that show up. To form a driver's committee and demand a meeting at your convenience, I believe is a waste of effort. It is natural that those that do contribute have more voice.
[/b]

Maybe I missed it, show up to WHERE? The NER RR meeting is not where NARRC decisions are made. If I am wrong, then you wouldn't have told me I was wasting my time with Serge and Doug, no?

I also don't remember anyone proposing a splinter committee 'demanding' anything. I think I wrote at the outset that I would get with Serge and Doug (as my Regions NARRC reps) and ask them what the steps should be. Actually, here is what I wrote:

I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?[/b]

So lets start from scratch. We have some members who would like to revamp the NARRC. How do they/we get organized and get involved Dick?

[Doc Bro]

I am sorry if things seemed personal. I thought Brian was out of line, but that's just my opinion and he's entitled to his. I didn't mean disrespect if that was the interpretation.

Andy, I would be interested in helping if needed or if not needeed at least just learning more about it.

I also wonder why we keep points for the NER and NARRC so differently. It's very hard to follow. At one point last year I was 8th in the NARRC? points and like 30th in the NER? points (or vice versa) without missing one race and only 1 dnf. How can that be?? Is this a streamlined system? Maybe one system would give more clout to the championship? Like or dislike NASCAR at least the point system is visible.

R

[dickita15]

To get back to the point, which is that there are drivers unhappy with the current point structure, the rule benefits the regions that are the most at risk at LRP. If you want the rule changed, that is where you must concentrate.
[/b]

Andy I thought I gave that answer in the part of my reply you did not quote.
The only thing any one region can do is cajole or withdraw from Narrc if they are not happy with the committees vote.

I also wonder why we keep points for the NER and NARRC so differently. It's very hard to follow. At one point last year I was 8th in the NARRC? points and like 30th in the NER? points (or vice versa) without missing one race and only 1 dnf. How can that be?? Is this a streamlined system? Maybe one system would give more clout to the championship? Like or dislike NASCAR at least the point system is visible.

R
[/b]

Rob, forgive me if I am being insultingly simple but you are comparing apples and oranges. Two different rule sets. NERRC is simple NER regionals. Obviously this creates a NHIS weighted series.
Narrc is a lot more difficult with 4 core regions and guests with races at 4 tracks and a convoluted rule set based on everyone preserving their turf. Movement with Narrc rules is slow and frustrating.

[Doc Bro]

No foregiveness needed. I understand the basics with the different regions, I was wondering if: 1 it is wise to have a 2 caste system? 2. can the same "point doling out process" apply to both series such that the NER series runs as "sort of" a subset of the NARRC points? 3. do the other regions have a NER equivalent champion?

Dick, please foregive my ignorance. If I seem to be totally confused it's because I am.....and this is my 3rd year in the series. See what I mean........

R

[RSTPerformance]

No foregiveness needed. I understand the basics with the different regions, I was wondering if: 1 it is wise to have a 2 caste system? 2. can the same "point doling out process" apply to both series such that the NER series runs as "sort of" a subset of the NARRC points? 3. do the other regions have a NER equivalent champion?

Dick, please foregive my ignorance. If I seem to be totally confused it's because I am.....and this is my 3rd year in the series. See what I mean........

R
[/b]

Each region has its own series... and it should stay like that. All the individual series are run well and cater towards the regions specific members. The NARRC series is a series that runs throughout a combination of regions and is falling apart due to many factors, mostly interregion polotics.

IMO to make it simple, invite all regions in the northeast and invite all regions races to count towards the points. If a "region" doesn't like the fact that another regions has more races thus thier drivers have a better chance or the series is more weighted for them, well then host more races. If a driver has similar problems then they can attend the Road Racing Board meetings and complain to there specific region and/or work/volunteer within thier region to make a change. Its simple IMO.

What is difficult for me is figuring out how to get involved with how the NARRC series is run. If we don't like how the NARRC series is run and decide not to go it not only effect the series but more importantly the regions. For that simple reason drivers should be the customers of NARRC, not the members whom are customers of the regions. I have spent a great deal of time within SCCA but not nearly as much as the core select people that run our regions. IMO inorder to make changes to the NARRC series one has to be a lifelong dedicated member.

Unfortunatly nobody can just walk up and volunteer to help and actually make a difference in the NARRC series, all someone can do is help with making an event or specialty (registration, tech, grid, stewards, flagging, T&S, etc) run smoothly (or better). If they dedicate a lot of time sure they can help a region run better, but that still won't have any much if any effect on the NARRC series. Please take this as a compliment and appreciation- Only people whom have dedicated years of volunteering can make a big difference, such people in NER as kathy B., Dick P, and Brian M. All are great examples of people we need and love (dispite disagreements) and whom poses the knowledge, connections, respect, and availablity to dedicate themselves to making a change within the regions.

I wish it were different, but it isn't. We might not like it, and I think that those whom "have the power" don't realize how hard it will be to fill your shoes should you ever decide to retire.

Raymond

PS: The above is trying to say if you attend one RRB meeting and expect to make a difference, you will feel like you have wasted your time (unless a specific topic of your interest is discussed and resolved). You need to go for at least a year and continue working at understanding EVERYTHING and getting involved.

[RKramden]

No foregiveness needed. I understand the basics with the different regions, I was wondering if: 1 it is wise to have a 2 caste system? 2. can the same "point doling out process" apply to both series such that the NER series runs as "sort of" a subset of the NARRC points? 3. do the other regions have a NER equivalent champion?
[/b]

The issue is that not all NERRC races are NARRC races, and not all NARRC races are NERRC races.

Yes, there is a good amount of overlap, but it only something like 50% or less.

D - Married to the NERRC and NEDIV points keeper

[RSTPerformance]

D - Married to the NERRC and NEDIV points keeper
[/b]

Dave-

Can you explain how the NEDIV points championship works? Personally I think that is how the NARRC series should be run. A respectful divisional chamionship for "regional racers."

Raymond

[RKramden]

Can you explain how the NEDIV points championship works? Personally I think that is how the NARRC series should be run. A respectful divisional championship for "regional racers."
[/b]

Dear Mr. Steward,

I could tell you, but then, I would have to call that special number and "they" would send out a special team to take care of you.

Or, simply read GCR to section 3.9.1.A (on something like page 16) and see what it says.

And here I thought the stewards were experts on what is in the GCR. I've been told that by many stewards.

I guess this means that stewards are even worse about reading the rules that drivers.

Is this proof that stewards are anencephalic?

D - who doesn't even think about those rules because he wrote a bunch of Excel macros that do all of it for him.

For those who are GCR challenged, it is basically best 6 races, of which at most 2 can be from out of division.
Note that there are only 8 or 9 in division races to begin with, so it is about 75% of the races count, if you run that many. No "bonus" points, no other crap, run your races, collect the most points. Very few drivers make it to 72 points in any year (The max), and some classes are so poorly contested that if you show up and finish dead last in every race, you still could be class champ.

NEDIV has way more times as many regional races, so best 6 wouldn't work. But, best 10 might.

Using this format for the whole division wouldn't mean much unless there was a "winner take all" race at the end. It needs to fold all the NYSRRC, MARRS, and NARRC drivers together if it is going to fly.

Technically doable, but a political nightmare.

[bg43wex]

A regions main concern is more about putting on a well attended and financially (they go together) succeful event, more than they care what series is running.

The races came first then the series or gimmick theme where added to enhance the races. most entrants only run a few races a year in order to maintain their license or just run some races for fun.

I say this because when we sit down and start planning events very little discussion is used in regards to what series is running at what track and when unless it's an add on like vintage who might add run groups to a day.

NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC who cares? a region runs events it doesn't enforce series rules, series administrators do and none of these series have them.

I'll go back to my original post KILL NARRC! and start over. start a series that asks a region if you can piggyback on their event charge $6 per entrant and take the results as they stand, come up with some sort of championship structure for events run, total points and you have the new... series.

This is the format Formula Ford uses for the New England Challenge.

FYI, NER's meeting tommorrow unfortunatley is opposite NNJR at Pocono, but please remember this is also the third weekend in 4 that the NER crew will be working. many will also work next week at LRP for MoHud then back to NHIS for memorial day. we fit these important meetings in where we can not when it works for everyone.


I harp on the get involved wagen the most because if you don't understand how an event is run you can't fully undesrtand the dynamic of the piggyback series that opperate at an event.

Just like my daddy always said you can't be a little pregnant, in for a penny in for a pound. if you want to help do it, come to a meeting, volunteer at tech, flag, work in timing or registration on a friday night but do something that will help you start to understand regional opperations. I can guarantee an eye opening education.

thanx for the nice words Raymond, you always were my favorite twin

[RSTPerformance]

Dave-

I thought your real life experiences with your wife being the pointskeeper might add a little more than the black and white (and gray) GCR that knowbody (even Stewards ) knows by heart. The championship series is not something traditionaly enforced by the Stewards, but rather the pointskeeper and/or region/division. As I can see by your responce you do actually know a little, but don't let your ego grow to much from that compliment... Feel free to PM or start new threads with "steward quizes" from the GCR and I am sure I can get darn close to a 100%.. but that is all up to interpretation.

Raymond "Unlike you I don't keep a GCR with me 24/7/365 " Blethen

PS: Brian... lol

[RKramden]

I'll go back to my original post KILL NARRC! and start over.
[/b]

I seem to remember sitting at a NEDIV meeting with the person sitting next to me chanting "NESCCA must DIE. NESCCA must DIE." Maybe the two of you should pool resources, and with a few more supporters, you can kill off NARRC and get rid of all the special interest entitlements in the process.

[bg43wex]

would it be a special interest entitlement if you got one?

[ITB40]

I discovered this forum while "surfing" and wished I had known about it sooner. On the other hand, I may regret getting into this very difficult discussion. I have read most of your comments with interest as I presently serve as the Driver's Rep to the NARRC Committee from NNJR. The committee is made up of each of the four region's REs and a Driver's Rep from each or eight members in all. From my perspective, the changes in the points this year was driven by a serious financial problem - the very significant increases in track rental at Lime Rock. The entry from this past weekend's MoHud regional put an exclamation point on the seriousness of this problem. I suspect that Mohud took a very hard hit financially and no doubt the other regions will look at this as a threat to regional racing at LRP, not just the NARRC series.

Rather than attempt to answer individual points, I'm going to suggest (suggested earlier by Kathy Barnes at our last NARRC Committee meeting) that we conduct an open "town hall" meeting at the Mini Con in November to address the NARRC Series and the bigger picture of regional racing in the Northeast. In order to make that useful and productive many of you will need to participate both before and during the meeting. What must be kept in mind is that the regions need to at least break even on regional racing or they can not justify it to members who are not involved in racing. I have heard that MoHud lost $30,000 on this past weekend. Where do you think this money comes from? Dues won't cover it and you can't expect Solo, Rally and other functions to subsidize racing, even if they could. Remember also that track rental is not the only expense. There is insurance, sanction fees to National, wear and tear on the equipment, worker/participant parties, and so on. If the regions can't manage this financially, they can't run races. If they don't rent the tracks, pay the expenses, etc., there is no racing. Many of you have offered to participate and more of you wil be needed if you believe SCCA regional racing is important. I personally believe this will be a year of significant change for all of us involved in regional racing in the Northeast. Thanks for listening.

[RKramden]

conduct an open "town hall" meeting at the Mini Con in November to address the NARRC Series and the bigger picture of regional racing in the Northeast. In order to make that useful and productive many of you will need to participate both before and during the meeting.[/b]

Problem is that almost the only "drivers" who are there are there because of other interests. People like you, Jack H, etc. who go because of being stewards or on the NARRC committee, etc., not because they care about other driver things at the Mini-Con. There is almost nothing, other than one meeting, that would interest most drivers at these conventions.

Either that, or it is on the "other side of the world". Having the meeting in places like Buffalo is "customer (driver) hostile". It is either fly there or a day out and a day back just to go to a meeting.

It would be like NER hosting the meeting in Kittery, ME. It's in the southern half of the region, after all. How many drivers would trek all the way there just for one meeting? How about having the meeting in Bangor, ME? There is still another 250 miles of NER north of there!!! (But I doubt there are many members up that way.) Just about everyone (including NER members) would need to fly in, so you can bet that you won't have painful long discussions with huge groups of people.

(And yes, I know that the Mini-Con is in Rocky Hill, CT this year. Kittery is about 3 hours PAST that, and Bangor another 2-3 past that. The end of the region is yet another 4-5 hours PAST THAT.)

p.s. The northern end of my own region is further from my house than Buffalo, and I live just outside of Nashua, New Hampshire.

I'll go, but only because I have family that I can stay with only 15 minutes from the convention hotel.

(And Greg Amy lives even closer....)

D

[Dave Zaslow]

Butch,

I certainly hope that all racers are aware of the financial responsibilities that a region takes on when they stage a race. I hope that the regions understand the financial and scheduling resources of the racers as well.

Using NARRC as a marketing tool to fill the grids at LRP may or may not prove to have been a viable strategy. As it stands now, only those 120 drivers who ran the MoHud race can earn double points at the NARRC-offs. And then only if they make it to the NNJR and NER events at LRP. As I had to bail on that race for health reasons, is there now an incentive to come to the next LRP race? Do I need an inentive, or should I just go because it will be a race I want to enjoy.

We can try to manipulate demand, but the market will tell us what the supply should be. It will vary from year to year, but our product is also tied to a racetrack that will not allow us to freely respond to that demand with more or less or better dates. Elastic demand and inelastic supply, where have I heard this concept before?

Was NNJR's Pocono event was succesful with 160 entries? Did MoHud have any choice but to take a date that was the nexr weekend? Would it have made a difference if it was NER running that event? (I don't think so) Should regions co-host events to spread the risk?

Perhaps we need an economist/financial/marketer on the Region's scheduling committee.

But what does this have to do with how the NARRC championship is configured? This is what the folks here have not yet put together. They will.

I suggest that rather than trying top get disparate bodies into one spot for a town hall meeting, the NARRC committee set up an online forum via the NESCCA site. Let's tap the talent we have throughout the regions and see what we turn up (or over).

[lateapex911]

..... I'm going to suggest (suggested earlier by Kathy Barnes at our last NARRC Committee meeting) that we conduct an open "town hall" meeting at the Mini Con in November to address the NARRC Series and the bigger picture of regional racing in the Northeast. In order to make that useful and productive many of you will need to participate both before and during the meeting.

What must be kept in mind is that the regions need to at least break even on regional racing ....... [/b]

I think Butch has touched on that aspect, and certainly, it will be imperitive that people become involved and educated before getting together too hammer out the solution. Some form of web based roundtable would be great, but, it needs to have a good representation from all the players.

[gran racing]

<Dave&#39;s broken record> Make better use of PDXs

For what it&#39;s worth, SCDA has a two day HPDE on Friday June 22 & Sat. the 23rd. No entries would be accepted that were post marked prior to 5/15. Within one week (maybe sooner), both days were sold out at $325 per entry, per day.

I&#39;m not criticising any past decisions for event planning, rather making a suggestion for future events. Yeah, I know we have one PDX at NHIS this year, but hopefully we&#39;ll see LRP ones in addition to that to help spread the LRP rental fee costs amoung the other numerous benefits it would provide. </Dave&#39;s broken record>

[RSTPerformance]

Should regions co-host events to spread the risk?

Perhaps we need an economist/financial/marketer on the Region&#39;s scheduling committee.

I suggest that rather than trying top get disparate bodies into one spot for a town hall meeting, the NARRC committee set up an online forum via the NESCCA site. Let&#39;s tap the talent we have throughout the regions and see what we turn up (or over).
[/b]

Butch-

Using the NARRC series as a way oto try and market the Lime Rock events failed (IMO), I hope that it does not put any regions under. The thing that people like you (and others whom run the regions) need to understand is that the customers (drivers/crew and probably a lot of workers) don&#39;t care what region hosts events. For this reason alone any financial analysis would probably support the idea of co-hosting events or eliminating the need for so many regions in such a small area. I would hate to see regions disapear but I do think that it is time to re-evaluate the way we share our resources (people, $$$, and track dates).

I certainly hope that you take this as an open minded review and not as an insult. I havn&#39;t ment in any of my posts to insult any regions/people, but I certainly am not currently a happy member of SCCA.

Raymond