Death of a championship

[bg43wex]

Time to chime in.

It never ceases to amaze me, how so many, who do so little (directly) with the operations of a series or a region can complain so much.

I will preface that statement by thanking Raymond for becoming a steward, Dave Lyons for being chief of NER starters among other tasks, Jake for his work on the ITAC, Greg divisional scrutineer and Dave Patten for driving Denise to meetings as well as always trying to be the driver who cares enough to show up at most every meeting and offering his as well as the opinions of other drivers.

Dick if anyone was to question your involvement I would have to wonder what region they transferred in from.

But for the rest of you ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME?

You do nothing but complain from your computer.

Dave Gran, Eric and Rob don't just type, show up and get involved. The meetings are open to all.

If you are waiting for an invitation, don't! Those that have been asking for help for years are sick and tired of this type of rant when up until last January almost every issue of Pit Talk and the NER web site asked for volunteer help.

The NARRC series is broken and probably should be terminated. Somehow it has gone from a series that is run in conjunction with SCCA regional races into????? A monster. Somewhere along the line the "NARRC Committee" has generated the power to dictate to individual regions how to operate at LRP, (this is a problem), the series should be nothing more than points awarded from the finish of select events run at XYZ tracks period. They should not be standardizing supp's for regions or determining what region gets what date or who is responsible for operating PRO dates at LRP, or any of the many other issues they decide need to be solved, but they have been.

LRP costs approximately 68K just break even for an event run at the level you have come to expect. The operating region must pay in full the 53k rent 30 days prior to the event, if it rains and you cancel the regions still pay.

Do you care?

This is why the 07-point system was installed. Yes it is about money, large amounts of money and trying to lessen the risk of loss while racing at LRP is very important to all the regions. We are sorry if it doesn't work for you, but really why doesn't it?

It's pretty rare that you can win NARRC without running at least a couple of times at LRP and traveling to Pocono’s as well, so what's the deal? I believe Greg won NARRC without even attending the run off's in 06. You don't have to run all the LRP events unless you want or know you'll need the double points bonus.

Andy if you were as fast at NHIS as you are at LRP would you be more vocal about the issue?

For the last year or so I tried to not even read this dribble because I was trying to make a difference and your constant abusive mean spirited rants really can make a volunteer feel unwanted.

Just remember for 2 years I was quite vocal in trying to find a replacement for my job, I don't recall all those e-mails asking how you could help, if it wasn't for Serge who by the way transferred regions just to take over you where looking a problem, thanx you really have helped.


You wanna help become trophy chairman, all you have to do is estimate quantities needed, order them, deliver them and distribute them. No biggy!

Or maybe volunteer to be racechair for an event, easy just hump 1200 bottles of h2o 30 cases of beer feed 250 people dinner and make snacks for 100, but don’t forget the ice so the drivers can have cold water when they come off the track.

I now my sarcasm is an acquired taste, so if I offended you I did not intend to, but let me tell you I am sick of reading complaints from uninformed people or some with 1/2 information at best. Free speech is great, informed discussion is better.

You can start being informed this Friday night, the meeting starts promptly at 7.30

[RSTPerformance]

Brian... good rant

Solution time: What do we do? I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?
[/b]

Andy, I am sure that I have bitched a little to much and probably pissed off a few people (ok I know I have). If I was still wanted I would certainly volunteer to join any committee reguarding the NARRC series or any other NEW series that we drivers might want to put together. My goal would be equality at all races at specific tracks or by all events tied into certain regions with 1 championship race that weighted more for the championship.

Another thing that came to mind is that all IT representation isn't what I would consider a good way to represent the NARRC series either as it consists of all classes.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy if you were as fast at NHIS as you are at LRP would you be more vocal about the issue?

[/b]

I guess 1/10th off the track record and coming from last to 2nd isn&#39;t good enough for you? <_<

I haven&#39;t said enough? I have written a ton on this. I UNDERSTAND the financial issues. I have NEVER thought you should be able to win a championship without going to all the tracks. I suck it up and go to Pocono on freakin MOTHERS DAY to have my ass handed to me on that drag strip just for the points - because (other than the date) it makes sense to me that this stuff gets spread out. I have suggested that the NARRC-offs be rotated to different tracks. I want to ADD prestige to the championship, not kill it. Do I like the fact that some of my competitors are skipping out on LRP because of cost? No. So I think that &#39;blame&#39; is short-sighted? Yes. We know it&#39;s not a Regional issue, its an LRP issue. Do I like HAVING to make 3 specific races to maximize points? No - but that falls in the NARRC committees hands, not ours. We want to FIX it...or is that not clear from our debate and my willingness to try and help?

You know I was the squeeky wheel this off season when the inter-regional crapola hit the fan because you (and others) voted to &#39;penalize&#39; NYR and MoHud with no double points at LRP because the politics got in the way. Who did THAT vote represent? Not me as a racer that is for sure. It was - and IS politcal BS. You and I talked at NHIS and I thought you had a great idea - take the NARRC (or another multi-regional series) into the hands of the racers. Isn&#39;t that what I am proposing and recruiting for?

You can start being informed this Friday night, the meeting starts promptly at 7.30[/b]

Oops - sorry, most of us will be at Pocono - because we HAVE TO BE. I keep wondering why the people who complain about the manditory LRP events don&#39;t complain about the Pocono event. It costs you more to miss that event. 14 points in your bag for just making 2 starts. But I UNDERSTAND - and do it. Heck - it&#39;s the easiest points out there.

Can you tell me how attending an NER meeting will help us with this NARRC debate again? I must have missed in when you slammed your fist on your keyboard this evening. There aren&#39;t many people who get involved when they think there are issues. To even infer I don&#39;t is rediculous.

Oh ya, thanks for mentioning my current service on the ITAC, SMAC and SSM committies as well as what is now my 4th try to volunteer as a committee member/lieson to the NARRC Championship. Guess not everyone can be doing a good job handing out water at NER events. My bad for not doing that too.

Bah.

[Dave Zaslow]

Thanks to Brian for all of the good work he has done, and is wlling to continue to do, including being part of the NARRC committee. Thanks also to the rest of all of the folks who allow us to trot out our hotsy-totsy cars and produce a few minutes of adrenalin excess; from those licking stamps to those scraping our cars off the pavement.

I was asked to be the &#39;fill-in&#39; NYR rep to the NARRC meeting last fall. I considered it an honor.

Chew on this:

Should a NARRC champion be required to run all of the NARRC tracks?

Should a NARRC champion be required to run a race from every NARRC region?

Should any race be double points? Should there be double regionals where both races have NARRC points?

Should we have a bonus equivalent to a first place finish for running races at three tracks?

Should the &#39;orphan&#39; Watkins Glen race be elevated to allow the track bonus points?

What happens if New England Region declines to give written permission to NYR, NNJR and MoHud and not allow them an SCCA sanction to race at Lime Rock?

Would NYR. NNJR or MoHud be interested in hosting a race at NHIS?

LRP is not holy ground but it is seen as an essential cash cow for the racing regions. If LRP stops giving &#39;milk&#39; what happens to racing in the northeast?

What if there were less NARRC races, say 1 Pocono, 1 NHIS, 1 LRP, 1 WGI?

What if Tri-Regions still had their racing (and money losing) date at Pocono and it was another NARRC race?

If Palmer is built it will be a NER track. What affect will this have on the NARRC regions?

If the New Jersey track is built, will the region that controls it want to be part of NARRC?

If LRP says we do not want to give the SCCA regions at least 5 weekends to run 1 national and 4 regionals, which region will lose?

I&#39;m sure there are alot of other questions we can ask ourselves. Mayhaps we can spend a few electrons looking for answers that will help us influence next year&#39;s NARRC committee.

Dave Z

[dickita15]

The Narrc committee is not and should not be designed to represent “racers”.
The four regions that run races and have a stake in them being successful are the Narrc Committee.
The regions owe their allegiance to their members, both racers and others.
The best way to serve these members is to put on successful programs, financially and otherwise.
Like it or not a member who makes no contribution to a region’s racing program will have their opinion valued less. These members has a narrow perspective.
Most members who work hard to make the racing program succeed just ignore comments on the web from the poorly informed that only see issues from their own perspective. Every now and then they cannot.

[Greg Amy]

One thing that a lot of organizers up here don&#39;t realize - and I could be way off-base on this - but most racers couldn&#39;t give TWO SHAKES as to who&#39;s hosting any particular event. I would sincerely doubt that, unless they consulted the supps, most racers could even tell you who&#39;s hosting the event. In fact, every time I pull up to a reg window I have to ASK to whom I write the check.

I don&#39;t care. I don&#39;t care if it&#39;s NER, Mo-Hud, NNJ, NEPA, NYR, whomever. I don&#39;t care.

I don&#39;t care.

I don&#39;t make choices on whether or not to attend races based on who&#39;s hosting it. I choose races based on things like venue, date, cost, travel, alternate use of that particular weekend&#39;s time and other resources. I have NEVER even THOUGHT to use the hosting region as a factor in deciding whether or not to attend a race. In fact, until this pissy little inter-region fight broke out this year, I never even thought to look and see who was hosting the event.

Why not? &#39;Cause I don&#39;t care.

In fact, to this DAY I still don&#39;t understand why there&#39;s animosity and/or competition among the regions (I&#39;ve got my suspicions) and in fact why there NEEDS to be individual regions versus one big division doing everything as a single group (same suspicions).

But, I don&#39;t care who hosts it.

Just SOMEONE host it: THAT&#39;S all I care about.

GA

[gran racing]

I feel exactly the same way as you on this Greg. I know this thread region territories wasn’t popular by some folks, but it ties into what you’re saying.

Dave Gran, Eric and Rob don&#39;t just type, show up and get involved. The meetings are open to all.[/b]

Brian,
A while back I sat down and gave some serious thought about what I believed needed attention within our club and sport for that matter. Like you’re stating, I decided it was time to either put up or shut up. Just because my involvement isn’t specific to the NER, it does not mean that I have not been involved (much more than you know). Are there other areas I feel could use improvement and/or just offer my assistance? You bet and I will continue to do more than just type although that was an ironic pun. LOL!

I do get what you’re saying. At the same point, I also believe some regions need to make becoming involved easier, and less intimidating. You personally have stated how much time various positions take and the impact it has on people’s lives. You also said how it effected the amount of time you were able to spend racing. I’ve heard this from many other volunteers so this isn’t just specific to you. I am amazed at the sacrifices people make and sincerely appreciate what they do to make all of this happen. When people are told about this, does scare them away? Yup. I distinctly remember our conversation a while back and it made me very gun shy. If regions approached more people with “we really could use your help for even just two or three hours a month,” maybe it would be possible to spread the work load out more. Instead of one person doing a job, break it out among a few people. Instead of telling people to drive out to meetings, some of the subjects could be addressed over con calls and even the internet. The easier regions make it for people to become involved and not make significant time commitments, the more people you’ll find to volunteer.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I just can&#39;t agree with you there Dick. A series committee should represent racers as well as the tracks and Regions it provides it&#39;s series to.

Dave,

Your questions are largely rhetorical. I would love to participate in a total redesign of a &#39;multi-regional championship series&#39; - or &#39;large geographical championship series&#39;. Things I would like to see:

- Double events. Pocono, NHIS, LRP, WGI. Whenever there are doubles, it drives up value for the racers. More racing for less money. Simple economies of scale on gas, food, lodging, etc.

- Double points and tons of track time at the Championship race. I think this elevates the importance of the race and provides good value. More importance has the potential to draw more cars. More cars has the potential to draw event-related sponsors and local contingency packages.

- Fair representation at all tracks. While I believe we should err on the side of where the racers ARE, we should also not be so short sighted as to think that if we extended the &#39;reach&#39; a little more, then more racers would come from NY, Jersey and PA.

- The series should be run by a group not affiliated with the regions. A &#39;series&#39; should be designed and brought to regional reps. This new series should look at all the available SCCA events at the 4 tracks, and then propose to these sanctioning regions that the new "Northeastern Road Racing Championship" would like to hold events in conjunction with their already scheduled event. Hopefully, the draw of the design and championship would allow these regions to pay into a fund for year-end incentives, much like the NARRC does now.

- With such a design, and lack of political and historical influence, one would think that event - or even a series sponsors could be found. In 2006, I coordinated over 12 individual contingency packages for the NARRC Runoffs alone. Could be done again I think.

- This new series should hold a minimum of 2 events at each of the 4 tracks, giving preference to double events with a hopeful total of 12 points events, best 8 going toward the year end.

- I would rotate the double-points championship event through all 4 tracks. In order to hold it, cool stuff would be required like photos and champaign on the podium, special chequered flags (like it is now with NYR at LRP but even more enhanced - how about a small &#39;vendor row&#39; should the tracks not whack us for that?)

- I would eliminate large attendance bonses. I would give 1 point per offiical start like we do now but nothing more.

- I would eliminate any requirement to attend any single race (below exception)

- I would REQUIRE a start at the championship double to be eligible for the year end brass ring

I could go on and on but I have thought about this a lot. We have some of the best Regions, best workers, best cars and best drivers in the country in the Northeast. We should have one of the best Road Racing series as well. How we do that, I am not sure, but I think we CAN do it. This could be as simple as creating a new NARRC committee made up of non-region reps, under the NARRC name, with a few tweaks to the program/rules.

[Doc Bro]

Brian if you reread my post you&#39;ll see I was trying to get involved. I personally don&#39;t care if your sarcasm is an acquired taste or not it&#39;s unnecessary. You may THINK that this is a subject that has been addressed before, and you may THINK that the organization is making getting involved easy, but you have at least two constituents saying it&#39;s NOT what you think. Sorry to break it to you man. I&#39;d go friday....Pocono, sorry, how much thought was put into that one. Hmmm....an organization about racing having a meeting (in the opposite direction) on the night before a race. How about this let&#39;s have it AT the race.....easier?

People are TRYING to get involved to the best of their abilities. I understand politics and your frustration, and I appreciate what everyone does (on their time) for this club, however, directing your wrath at those trying to help you is counter-productive. With rants like that you&#39;ll continue to stand alone...........

R

[dickita15]

I just can&#39;t agree with you there Dick. A series committee should represent racers as well as the tracks and Regions it provides it&#39;s series to.
[/b]

Andy it does if you follow the reality of my statements. The regions call the shots, they are the ones at risk putting on events. The regions answer to their members and are only successful if drivers want to participate and vote with their entry fee. The regions are not going to be governed by a committee of racers who have no stake beyond paying an entry fee.
Decisions are made by those that show up.

If regions approached more people with “we really could use your help for even just two or three hours a month,” maybe it would be possible to spread the work load out more. [/b]

Dave 3 hours a month is meaningless. Sorry but that is not a contribution.

[gran racing]

Dave 3 hours a month is meaningless. Sorry but that is not a contribution. [/b]

Nice. These are the attitudes that prevent more people from becoming involved and am surprised to hear this from you. Since three hours a month of someone&#39;s time is meaningless, at what point does it provide even the slightest amount of meaning? If this amount of time working on even little misc. items is a waste, I can&#39;t begin to imagine of how little value it would be to the regions for people to attend the meetings in your mind. Sense some sarcasm? Just because you don&#39;t know how to obtain productive contributions from people volunteering 3 hours a month doesn&#39;t mean it isn&#39;t there. Get someone started volunteering and who knows where that could lead. 20 people, 3 hours a month. I know, still meaningless.

[dickita15]

Dave, I am very sorry you find this insulting. I am honestly not shooting for that. You may disagree with me but I think any driver not willing to help for one or two weekends a year is a “plug and play” member.
I appreciate you believe I am not smart enough to utilize a 3 hour a month volunteer but that suggestion again would have more weight from someone who understands what it takes to put on races, and the truth of that is not many people on this board really understand that.
And no I do not believe that attending meetings is useless unless the one is going to show up at one or two and straiten us all out. RRB meetings are a great way to understand how this club works but it takes a while to get it. It really is amazing how few people understand the club from all the different angles.

[Doc Bro]

Great post Greg!!! You nailed it for probably 90% of the racers out there.

Dick,
If it is amazing why so few understand the club doesn&#39;t that tell us something about the club?

example:

I went to the test day before the last NHIS race (thursday). Stayed the whole weekend (race sunday). Told Mr. Dunklee I&#39;d be willing to help (along with my Dad) with anything that was necessary for the school EXCEPT any on track stuff. Now, most guys help at a school FOR the ontrack stuff. Was our offer used- NO... it even taken SERIOUSLY...NO. But then when you talk about these things (to shed light on you perspective to others) Brian gets all wadded up about people just typing and not doing. My Dad and I had a great weekend doing our own thing....but not helping out because we weren&#39;t needed....or is it "because we were not part of the club???" (how&#39;s that for sarcasm, Brian?)

We would&#39;ve shlepped food, or H2O, or helped in registration you name it....hell, we even rented a golf cart!!!

2 guys-8 hours per day.

Noam needed help with the Memorial day school.....I was his first volunteer reply....

&#39;Nuff said.


R

[Andy Bettencourt]

The reason we don&#39;t care what Region hosts is because each has excellent workers. If the NER tech guys caused you pain, the NNJR reg people caused you pain, the MoHud T&S people caused you pain, insert any regional specialty...you would notice, you would know and you would care.

But again, this isn&#39;t about individual regions. It&#39;s about a championship coming to a track near you during an already scheduled event. If the championship is good, people will run it and regions will WANT you to come.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I would add that this gets personal and I hope people can control their emotions. With that said, I am a believer that our club is full of good people, but major players need to do a better job of trying to attract people to help. No amount of help is too little, but IMO what I have seen is people look for help, but then its thier way or the highway to complete the task.

In order for any club to succeed, you need good educators and trainers. In fact these people many times are MORE important than the do-ers. Why? Because they keep the troops running and buffer the Sr. personnel from getting burned out, which seems to be the case over the last couple of years.

This topic has been brought up at the BOD meetings in the past and it is still something to think about. How do we attract more volunteers and KEEP them? I have some ideas, but this is at the heart of the problem for the volunteer situation.

[Wreckerboy]

This is not my fight AT ALL, so take it for what it is worth, but....

We often face the same problems in EMRA - too many tasks, not enough Indians. I often hear the "All you have to do is ask" refrain. When people offer to help, I believe that they genuinely mean to do so, and I appreciate it.

The problem is that when somebody offers to help, by that point I (Official Somebody Hat on) are usually so overwhelmed by the tasks at hand that it often takes more energy / time to provide direction than to actually do it myself. I genuinely appreciate the offer of help, but at that moment I just can&#39;t use it. Your offer is good, it&#39;s genuine, and it&#39;s appreciated, but it&#39;s too late and too vague to be of use.

Sorry, call it bad management skills on my part if you want.

But do you know what would help? Instead of making an open-ended, well meaning offer, offer to do something specific. As in, "I have a golf cart, can I use it to run the fire extinguishers out to the stations, or can I run the materials up to Registration?" Or, "I&#39;ve got a few hours free, do you need a hand on Grid?" Give me something specific for you to do, and it&#39;s one less thing I have to think about.

And even if you don&#39;t want to do that, and I understand the limitations of the approach, if I don&#39;t take you up on your offer right then, check back in an hour or two and see if anything has changed. As An Official Somebody With His Hair On Fire most weekends, I don&#39;t want to turn away help, I just don&#39;t always have the ability to step back and figure out what to do with it. Help me to help you.

Like I said, not my battle at all, so take it for what it is worth. Just trying to offer some additional perspective to the conversation.

[dickita15]

Rob B, I am sorry that Alan had enough instructors at that event and did not need your help. I am sure there were many other areas that could have used you. It would have been great if you could have helped out at Tech, Registration, Race Chair or whatever.

Rob M Good post, thank you

[Doc Bro]

Rob,

Absolutely agreed. However;

What is wrong with the folks who need help for something before hand putting out a general call on this BB like Noam did? That&#39;s a very easy and organized way to do things so that some new folks can participate. It&#39;s so easy to say after a race weekend that X didn&#39;t go well. Before the next race I&#39;m going to make a call out for help on this issue. I find it hard to believe that every weekend goes flawlessly well and is perfectly staffed.

The bottom line is as an observer and willing participant who (as pointed out) doesn&#39;t know the inner workings of the club it&#39;s hard to be specific about what you can or want to help with. I don&#39;t want to be in the way. I want to contribute in a meaningful fasion, that requires asking and guidance. You can&#39;t tell me everyone who is involved in this club didn&#39;t make blanket I can help statements. You don&#39;t just join this club and become the RR chair or education chair...it&#39;s an evolution through the ranks. All I was trying to point out is that the "just getting started" part is not what we think it is.

R

[dickita15]

To get back to the point, which is that there are drivers unhappy with the current point structure, the rule benefits the regions that are the most at risk at LRP. If you want the rule changed, that is where you must concentrate.
And second, decisions are made by those that show up. To form a driver’s committee and demand a meeting at your convenience, I believe is a waste of effort. It is natural that those that do contribute have more voice.

[JLawton]

I agree with Jeremy, it&#39;s getting very personal and I truely think all of us here are out for the same goal. We just have different opinions on getting there........

This may be a stupid thought (since I don&#39;t know any of the politics....) What if the regions co-sponsored all the NARRC races? Split the exposure and split the profits?? Am I being too simplistic??