Death of a championship

[RKramden]

Doing the meetings during the lunch hour would be ideal if it's going to happen at the track. I do not think you'd get the turnout that we'd be looking for if done after the event.
[/b]

Another thing to consider is WHERE the meetings are held.

If you want to reach the largest number of NARRC drivers, then skip Lime Rock and head to NHIS. It is a fact that in the recent past, over 3/4ths of the NARRC drivers are from NER. So, head to where you will find the majority of the drivers in the series. Polling drivers at Lime Rock will certainly skew the results of the poll, making it of little value. Well intended, but not the best data.

Asking the people who are not pissed off at LRP and still going to their events (or are going because they don't have much of another choice) isn't going to tell you much about the other drivers who are not there. (or why the are not there)

It's kind of like running a poll outside the Republican convention and asking the people if they are going to vote Republican in the next election.

Well, Duh....

[Dave Zaslow]

Dave L,

I agree that these forums should be held at as many venues as possible, but I note that very few of those running the NARRC races went to all three venues to pick up the 8 bonus points.

People are generally busy during an event. The neutral ground of cyberspace may be the most apprpriate venue for this discourse. Perhaps the at-track gatherings should be used to encourage those interested to come to the forum to lend their ideas. I would encourage transcripts from the at-track discussion to be published on the forum.

Does anyone have a list of all of the special interest group sites that we need to reach out to?

SRF ?
Prod prodracing.com
IT improvedtouring.com
SM specmiata.com
CSR/DSR ?
Formula ?
SP ?
SS ?
Touring ?
Prepared ?

Plus each regions website and the NESSCA website.

Dave Z

[dtanthon]

The current NARRC homepage is - http://www.scca-nnjr.org/NNJR_Race/NARRC.shtml
We (Richard Welty and I) are in the process of including a bulletin board that will look like the one used on this site.

All the contact information is available on the current website, has any one contacted those individuals that volunteered that sit on this committee? My email must be faulty because I figured it would be overflowing with suggestions for 2008 NARRC improvements and other constructive comments......

One comment I saw that I liked was the restricted regional, these are possible at Lime Rock or Pocono, but the expenses are covered by entry fees and sponsorship dollars. Do the math and you can figure what the entry fee will be with a lower car count.

Contact your regions NARRC representative or the entire voting committee with your suggestions. Your RE and Driver's rep are your voice into the NARRC committee, get involved with your series.

NNJR is hosting the NARRC August regional races at Lime Rock, on Friday night we hope to host a 'NARRC Town Hall' meeting to accept suggestions and answer questions face to face, details to follow (suggestions welcome). Ask NER to host one at NHIS.

Thanks,
Darrell Anthony
NNJR-RE (for a few more months)
2006-2007 NNJR NARRC Committee representative
#27 GTL
Flagger / Starter / Race Chairman / Registration / Equipment / Logistics
Asst NNJR webmaster

[Andy Bettencourt]

Please have these meetings AND PLEASE put the announcement in the supps. This way nobody will have an excuse for not knowing it was going on.

[RKramden]

Please have these meetings AND PLEASE put the announcement in the supps. This way nobody will have an excuse for not knowing it was going on.
[/b]

Andy,

First, that makes an assumption the people will actually read the supps. History has shown that this is not a good plan. Also, the meeting shouldn't be part of the official rules for the event. Posters at Registration, a separate handout, and getting registrars to say something would work MUCH better.

I think that everyone agrees that the meetings are needed. There is a certain dynamic of face to face interaction and brainstorming that suffers on a BBS. I think, however, that Dave Z and I and others agree that holding these meetings at only LRP is not a good sample of the drivers. It needs to be done at every track possible. If Butch wants to get the feedback, then he needs to haul up to NHIS for Pig Roast, Cheap Date, or RAL weekend.

Contact your regions NARRC representative or the entire voting committee with your suggestions. Your RE and Driver's rep are your voice into the NARRC committee, get involved with your series.
[/b]

DA,

The issue that people seem to have is that the NARRC committee acts to represent the interests of the regions, not the NARRC series, nor the drivers. And that is the part that is bass ackwards.

[RKramden]

OK, here is some DATA.

For 2006, I counted drivers that are listed in the NARRC points. It was a straight driver count, not weighted by number of entry fees paid. Sloppy job, I may have missed a few. But, what the heck, there were almost 900 different drivers listed.

For the 4 "NARRC" regions, the numbers were:

• NER 473 70%
• NY 76 11%
• NNJ 55 8%
• MoHud 67 10%

In addition, there were 207 drivers from "other" regions, with the vast preponderance running only the race at the Glen. In fact, the SRF race was very skewed, as there was a pro SRF race there the same weekend, and a number of drivers were from places like Oregon, Colorado, and Atlanta. Not exactly running for the NARRC championship.

Update:

OK, I picked 5 classes, SM, SSM, ITS, ITA and ITB. Picked because they are "bigger" classes, but without looking at the points listings.

Then I counted up the number of entries for the top 10 drivers from each class. A total of 415 entry fees paid.

Results are:

• NER 328 79%
• NY 47 11%
• NNJ 0 0%
• MoHud 40 10%

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dave, I said put it in the supps because you are required to read them per the rules. If you don't, tough rocks. They don't have to be part of the 'rules' per se, just information in a spot everyone is required to look. Maybe it's against protocal to do so but it leaves no excuses IMHO.

[bg43wex]

Dave, I said put it in the supps because you are required to read them per the rules. If you don't, tough rocks. They don't have to be part of the 'rules' per se, just information in a spot everyone is required to look. Maybe it's against protocal to do so but it leaves no excuses IMHO.
[/b]

Andy, the rules are the rules, not a "Per Se" version.

A couple of years ago we really tried hard to get information out, the Web, PitTalk, handouts everytjing we could think of, we did get some input but I would say less than 1% return on the #'s we contacted.

If you can find an inexpensive way to get your message out I am sure some people will show. But I highly doubt the turnout will be many.

Happy competitors don't care, now I'm not saying everybody who runs an event is happy about everything that happens on a given weekend, but most are as evident by the lack of written or phone complaints that are recieved.

I really feel that this group needs to take a step back and help figure a way out for MoHud, NNJR and NYR to stay racing regions.

All it will take for a region to go under is lose 30 or 40k at LRP (oop's this already happened). and if it happens twice how can they stay in business.

The NARRC committee is a group of represntatives who meet in order to direct a "RACE SERIES", they do not run events, they don't rent tracks, set entry fee's, pay for food, insurance or any of they other hundred things we pay for.

Your regions need you to come up with ways to draw competitors to the tracks and keep fee's down.

I dare you to ask around and find out how many people really care about the NARRC series, or any series for that matter, most just want to race and have a chance to finish 1st just once.

come up with some novelty events, Enduro's, PDX's Team challenges, ? sponsored/Pro race, some sort of class or group festival.

I would caution you on the back lash of a restricted regional, if you want to hear mad competitors just tell an F Vee or SRF or GT1 driver sorry you can't run this weekend. aren't we the club that let's everyone race?

Here's an idea to help a region hedge it's bet on a race weekend, everyone must Pre Pay for the event and if you cancel within say 7-8 days of the weekend you only gey 1/2 your entry back. if you late enter a real late fee maybe $100.00 would be the fine, this would help with the entrants who no show because of bad weather (which has been as many as 40% at some events).

And one last off the top of my head thought. MoHud lost X$ at their event what if they can't pay the NARRC fee? the rent to LRP is first and on down the line. What will you do?

brian

[JLawton]

just tell an F Vee or SRF or GT1 driver sorry you can't run this weekend. aren't we the club that let's everyone race?

[/b]

Hmmmm, just like national races??

[GregM]

I don't even no where to start. I don't really care about the points. What I do care about is SCCA racing and not wanting to lose anymore race dates at ANY track.

We lost the 2nd National at LRP for the 4th of July Mosport race. I really wanted Mosport to be back on the schedule, but without losing a date. How many will attend that race weekend traveling outside the country ? We will have to wait to see . Its costs way more to haul there so how will that outway the LRP entry fee. I am not going to travel out of OUR country on a National holiday.

Losing the 4th of July National date was terrible. My first race I ever attended was LRP in 1977. If ALMS or Grand Am pack their bags for another track maybe we get the date back. But what are the odds of that happening?

Open track dates are easier for the tracks to run = make more money. We ( racers) cannot afford to lose race dates to open track events.

We have to find a way to make the race dates financially viable. Period. Maybe if we create an average entry fee across the board ?

I will race anywhere anytime so long as I have a car running. Just don't give up anymore dates anywhere. We will NEVER get them back.
I am selling my T2 car. I will be racing more regionals again. Count my entry in for LRP and Pocono.

See you at the track.................

[RKramden]

The NARRC committee is a group of representatives who meet in order to direct a "RACE SERIES", they do not run events, they don't rent tracks, set entry fee's, pay for food, insurance or any of they other hundred things we pay for.

Your regions need you to come up with ways to draw competitors to the tracks and keep fee's down.
...
And one last off the top of my head thought. MoHud lost X$ at their event what if they can't pay the NARRC fee? the rent to LRP is first and on down the line. What will you do?
[/b]

So maybe the NARRC committee needs to stop acting like they run the regions and start acting like they run a series. I never thought having the RE of a region being on the NARRC committee was a good idea. Way too many conflicts of interest.

These folks came up with the stupid "Pocono" rule to try to force drivers to that track, then this latest rule to force drivers to go to Lime Rock. Next we are going to see a NHIS rule (no points from NHIS unless you run there at least 4 race weekends a year ) and then a Glen rule, 20 bonus points if you run 4 tracks in one year.

A bunch of "special interest" rules made by the alleged series committee for the benefit of some of the regions.

The only thing I can assure you is that next year the rules will be different yet again.

So, how about this as a straw man proposal:

Make NARRC act a lot more like NASCAR. If NARRC is strong enough as a championship series, then this should work.

The NARRC committee has:

• one NON-RE rep from each region that runs a NARRC race (in the previous year) and
• some number of DRIVERS that ran in one or more NARRC races the previous year. (I have no clue HOW they get selected, yet, but they have to be willing.)
• Committee moderator (like what Dave Panas does now)
• Points keeper
• preferred number czar
• Treasurer
• Flag/trophy/champagne person

One person could do one or more of the last 5 things.

Let each region give out the trophies at their meeting, as they see fit. Loose the poorly attended NARRC dinners that some regions forget to even have.

Regions pay the estimated NARRC fee up front. All fees are for the WEEKEND.

• X dollars per car for a single,
• 1.5X dollars per car for a double race weekend,
• 2X dollars per car for a double points weekend.

With the current fees, regions must pre-pay $1,000, $1,500, or $2,000 to NARRC to call their race a NARRC race. NARRC sends a bill or refund if the entry is above or below the estimated amount. If you get rid of the often small and token checks, then make it $300, $450 and $600.

Option: for an extra $200, $300, $400,

• each class with 10 or more entries (qualify/race) gets Champagne in the winners circle, pictures in the NARRC news letter, etc.
• you get a really nice full sized checkered flag for your first ever NARRC win, something you can mount on the wall.

And no, Andy won't get one because he already won a NARRC race. So did Greg. The NARRC group could SELL them a flag (along with all the other past winners), however, if they really wanted one.

The NARRC group promotes the series, the regions promote and run the races.

Make the series act like a real series, getting rid of all the special rules that either hurt or help various tracks.

Get the series out of the business of promoting races put on by specific regions.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hey Greg - if you want to race at LRP on the 4th of July, you can! It's just a Regional this year.

As far as your other comments, while your desires are the same as ours, what are wee to do? The track fees are such that Regions need to charge more money - money that not a lot of people are willing to pay - so events lose money...money that can sink Regions in one fell swoop. So what is the solution? LRP may be pricing the SCCA right out of the game and there is nothing we can do about it.

[GregM]

Andy,
I am obviously a big Lime Rock supporter. Hell I am just some couple of hundred of feet away. I have raced under many sanctioning bodies. I do everything I can to support SCCA racing ( I have asked to help get licensed to help do annual tech to help the spring wait lines at the track. Nobody has ever taken me up on it and I am down the block every weekend)

I am just very concerned over us all losing races because we currently think the fee's are too high. What happens when " open " track clubs are willing to pay more when we ( SCCA racers) aren't ???

Many of us started as open trackers ( PDA, SCDA etc.) then we did time trails ( EMRA, COM etc. ) then we went on to race. What I am sure we have all seen is a sudden surge membership / entries in " open " track events. This should concern us all. I instructed for many years with different clubs. What I have also seen is a change in people wanting to get " signed off" over the years. Way back in the early 90's most people really wanted to learn, but thats another story.................... I do see the wreckers leaving LRP more and more with wrecked cars after events while sitting up on the hill overlooking Lime Rock Road................

Maybe we ( SCCA members / the CLUB ) need to hire an outside agency to help to find a better way to run the business ( everyday SCCA Club operations ) to help make our regions more financially viable ?? This takes spending some money but maybe if we find the right consultants we can make a real change for the better. Just look at the money the Club makes and tell me that they can't afford to help the Region's better organize and run themselves ? Why are we loaning all that money to Pro when we need to take care of ourselves and help the Club GRO ????????? Nasa grows support , makes money and what do we do ?

[ner88]

Greg
I think any "outside agency" would look at $28,000. per day track rental and say "don't do it".
I also think any track would open up race dates for that kind of money.
The question is "who will pay those entry fees"?
I think that question was answered recently at LRP, Not many!
Jerry

[gran racing]

The question is "who will pay those entry fees"?
I think that question was answered recently at LRP, Not many![/b]

I'm not entirely sure the entry fees is what caused this. I've spoken with a few people who typically only race at LRP, and yes, the entry fee reached a point where it was simply too high for them to justify. At the same point, when I walk around the paddock I see numerous big (expensive) rigs. Is the higher entry fee really what kept them away? Or was it three consecuitive race weekends, and they chose to skip the LRP for various reasons (entry fee may have contributed). I don't know.

[lateapex911]

Entires seemed down also at NHIS the weekend after.

I think having, what, 3 doubles in a row, one on Mothers Day and one on Memorial Day made for thin entries across the board. Mix in the highest gas prices and the highest entry prices at one track, and the results are understandable.

[GregM]

Greg
I think any "outside agency" would look at $28,000. per day track rental and say "don't do it".
I also think any track would open up race dates for that kind of money.
The question is "who will pay those entry fees"?
I think that question was answered recently at LRP, Not many!
Jerry
[/b]

I myself was away on a much needed vacation and thats why I missed the last LRP event. I try to make all events there, alway's.

Entry fee's for myself and many of my racing friends is not what affects whether or not we race. Its scheduling. Many of the National's overlap the Regional's and thats generally why I am not there. I have three IT cars and they could and should be at all LRP / Pocono events but if I am at another Northeast race they aren't.
Scheduling weekends back to back for most racers is a problem unless your retired.

Track rental at $28,000 sounds like alot but when you have a 30+ car waiting list and 120 entered cars these " open track" clubs are making money. PDA for example has entry fee's of $250 and $270-295. At $295 thats $35,400 or $7400 profit. They are out to make money not lose it. Open track guy's are paying these fee's so why can't we attract entries ????
The equipement I have been seeing at the track lately tells me there is something else going on. Entry fee's can't be the issue when we have so many BIG rigs at regional's and National's. Fuel prices have also skyrocketed. $9 for 98 octane at NHIS when 25 minutes away at Sunoco 100 octane was $6.69 !!! $7.50 for 100 octane here on Long Island.

[lateapex911]

Greg, running an open track day and a full contact SCCA race is much different.

First, you aren't seeing the other costs involved, such as sanction fees, insurance, ambulance fees, consumables, mandated catering fees, and so on. Lime Rock won't sign a contract without adding some over the top items the club could bring in much cheaper, such as a keg of beer.

And races need more staff, by far. We have a protest system, and that requires Stewards at the ready. Timing and scoring must be attended to, which requires significant staff and computing gear. And of course, the stations must be manned, with a radio network (with backup gear) and with more than the track day crew numbers.Tech needs to be staffed, with scales and other equipment. And it all needs to get to the track and be stored when not there.

Lime Rock charges PDA, for example, much less than it charges an SCCA Region. All up, a two day regional at Lime Rock costs a region in the neighborhood of $75K. Thats allowing for the extras and some assigned value to things needed by the region to operate. I might be off a bit, but you get the idea.

Track day clubs operate much more leanly, and their costs are much, much lower.

It's really an apple to steak comparision.

. Open track guy's are paying these fee's so why can't we attract entries ????
[/b]

Running a car in a track day is also a far different proposition than a race car. heck, i can jump in my 911, drive it to the track, and run it around, then drive it home...

No trailer..no truck, no tool box, no tthree sets of wheels, no drivers suit, etc.

Simply, racing is a much bigger commitment and endeavor, and the costs reflect that.
When times are lean, the ones who are marginal drop back, but the rich (Big rigs) keep going. But thats often not the numbers the regions need to survive. It is estimated that the MoHud region lost in the $25K range on the last regional. Thats possibly fatal.