Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?

[lateapex911]

Yup, after just getting back from instructing for them at the Glen with Dave Gran, I have to agree, the events run very well. The schedule thing is great. I think part of that stems from a little time built in for clean up, but also from the fact that they are very careful with the run groups and who gets to move up. They take two and four wheels off seriously, (mandatory black flag) and two spins gets you a mandatory early exit.

The cars were pretty impressive as well. About a dozen Lotus Elise and Exiges, a couple Z06 and other assorted current gen Vettes, a 69 Camaro with fuel cel, a bevy of newer 911s (996s, 997s) and a GT3 version, plus a token Caddy CTS-V, and a flock of Subaru WRXs along with the usual E36, & E46 M3s.. My old 911 was the runt of the litter, LOL.

[gran racing]

Dave,

Speaking as a customer and now as an instructor for SCDA, they are absolutely top notch all the way from their scheduling and keeping things on time, amount of track time received, how friendly and helpful everyone is, and lets not forget the class room instruction.

At first I was thinking that SCDA and SCCA's PDXs are somewhat competitors, but maybe that isn't so much the case. Since SCDA has worked hard during the years and gotten the right formula for running these types of events, maybe SCCA should consider hiring them as a consultant?

[Andy Bettencourt]

At first I was thinking that SCDA and SCCA's PDXs are somewhat competitors, but maybe that isn't so much the case. Since SCDA has worked hard during the years and gotten the right formula for running these types of events, maybe SCCA should consider hiring them as a consultant? [/b]

While I agree with you guys that these events run well, what you are asking is like asking a small local autox club whose events run smooth and well - to consult on how to make the Solo 2 Nationals run better.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.

[tdw6974]

.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.
AMEN!!!!

[RSTPerformance]

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on, but as far as SCDA and SCCA PDX type events are concerned I don't think they are at all the same. SCDA is a private organization that delivers a product to make a profit. SCCA is designed as a club event to allow its members to have fun and enjoy themselves. SCDA pays the workers (some way or another) while the SCCA (PDX or otherwise) events don't. The list could go on and on on how they are different. SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not recieving the same product. I don't think anyone at SCCA has tried or should think otherwise.

On the original thread... Dave Patten probably has it best... the red jackets, are probably the basic idea... In addition at NHIS the "cleanup crew" whom man the white trucks that respond to any incidents at NASCAR events are also track volunteers, NOT paid for crew from NASCAR. This could be another reason they are trying to "man" the track with a group of Lime Rock dedicated people.

And on my thoughts from before... Jake- Does EMRA (?) and BMW club pay the same rates to have "racing" days or do they take muffled dates at a lower rate? Has anyone from the SCCA Regions ever investigated this idea?

Raymond

[lateapex911]

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on, but as far as SCDA and SCCA PDX type events are concerned I don't think they are at all the same. SCDA is a private organization that delivers a product to make a profit. SCCA is designed as a club event to allow its members to have fun and enjoy themselves. SCDA pays the workers (some way or another) while the SCCA (PDX or otherwise) events don't. The list could go on and on on how they are different. SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not recieving the same product. I don't think anyone at SCCA has tried or should think otherwise.

Raymond [/b]

I just reread this. I'm curious...assuming that SCCA were to hold an event on a day at Lime Rock that was not a race weekend, how would the "products" be different?

Both events use the customers cars. Both events require safety gear and safety checks. Both events are controlled passing. Both provide instruction in high performance driving to relative newcomers. Both try and provide as much track time as possible, and classroom sessions take up a portion of the off track time.

SCCA does desire, I assume, to create and groom drivers for future wheel to wheel activities.

But, if SCCA chose a point man, and some staff, and rented a stafffed track how different would the product be?

Do the customers see the flaggers as being different? The instruction quality?

Seems to me that as far as the customer is concerned, the experience could be very very similar. SCCA does have a good name to draw on, but to many that won't matter. Help me see the differences, from a customers point of view.

(My suggestion here is that, as far as Lime Rock is concerned, SCCA could rent the track and run a Drivers ed event at the same rate as any other club...and provide the same, or better experience to the client. I don't think it's that hard to put the peices in place .... SCDA has proven that..... but we would need to look at the formula and follow it.)

On edit: Now that I posted, I see Dave has beaten me to many of the same points...

[Wreckerboy]

....Snip

And on my thoughts from before... Jake- Does EMRA (?) and BMW club pay the same rates to have "racing" days or do they take muffled dates at a lower rate? Has anyone from the SCCA Regions ever investigated this idea?

Raymond
[/b]

Raymond -

Sorry to get to this particular party so late.

I'm "the EMRA guy" Jake referred to a few pages back (even though I used to hold a SCCA regional license, EMRA has been my racing home for 19 seasons now). EMRA pays the same horrific rates that the SCCA does for LRP for our race days. For our Time Trial days we pay a slightly discounted rate, equivalent to what the marque clubs pay because we have very limited passing. Lime Rock does not give us any special deal. We're there in October this year because we chose to take advantage of the "off season" rates that are in place after (I think) September. At least ten years ago we had managed to get one of the unmuffled days, but haven't had one since. We run to the same restrictive dB requirements that everyone else faces.

I've been following this thread with interest because we face the same problems as your much larger organization faces. In fact, during last year's event we had an huge amount of rain and had something like 23 cars show up on race day. EMRA is a not for profit organization, and certainly lived up to those standards that day. Just like many of the smaller regions cited in these sorts of threads, a few events like that and we might cease to exist.

Interestingly, our Time Trial days at LRP are always well subscribed and usually have waiting lists. Just like Matt Rove, we're looking at what our customers want, and what we can do to to attract more. At LRP it seems to be a classic case of supply and demand.

Our insurance costs are as stratospheric as the next guy, but we do have an advantage in that we don't have to pay the "Mattberg Black Helicopters Fuel Fund to get our event specific golf shirts delivered."

WB
Grateful to be 100% Mattberg free!

Perhaps we could emulate EMRA. Circa 1980: "Organized Open Practice". Early Tuesday morning, EMRAs zany cadre of grassroots racers convene at LRP, including officials, timing/scoring, and flaggers. Entry is dirt-cheap, the going rate for an open practice/test day ($75?). There is a little initial confusion when we want to put our flaggers on station when LRP already has their own, but the track relents when we explain that we need to "practice" flagging. The 5 or 6 SCCA types are suprised to see such an eclectic mix of cars that stay out the whole first (practice)session and do the same the nest (qualifying) one. We didn't figure the track would be too sanguine if we "practiced" a start, so I, as polesitter, paced the field around to No-Name where we had our start. A good day of racing, unmuffled, and quite economical. EMRA didn't even buy any insurance as I recollect. After the race, an SCCA guy came over and wanted to know why we seemed to be so competetive on track-he's probably still wondering! Phil
[/b]

Phil - not much has changed since then except the dollar amounts and the insurance. And maybe we get a better selection of beer for the trophy and worker award ceremony at the end of the day then we did then!

[JohnRW]

Phil - not much has changed since then except the dollar amounts and the insurance. And maybe we get a better selection of beer for the trophy and worker award ceremony at the end of the day then we did then!
[/b]

...and Jell-O shots, too.

[lateapex911]

BMWCCA, as well as PCA run with the 13/13 no contact rule, (I'm pretty sure) which is a much stricter contact rule than what SCCA, NASCAR, Grand AM, etc run with. It is my understnading that the costs associated with that are different.

We have a poster here from EMRA, Rob, so I'll let him adress EMRAs point of view on this.

Just as a point of reference, SCDA charged a driver $240 a day if he entered both days at the Glen, $280 for a single day entry. I am pretty sure that the Glen supplied the flaggers...enough that I saw them in all the usual spots around the long course...but only one per station. Of course there was a wrecker and ambulance on station as well.

SCDA charges $325 for one day at LRP. I am not sure how they handle flaggers.

Track time amounts to (4) 25 minute sessions.

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks for the reply Jake... This is interesting to me.

Maybe someone with more knowledge than us can say if that is or is not a factor in the rental price. it seems that it could be something Lime Rock would do, however turn that around and we now have some power. What other clubs are willing to spend as much as we do whom do not have the 13/13 rule? If Lime Rock charges us more because of these more leinient rules then if we were to go, then whom are these people/clubs who would fill in the dates for the same rates? Is Lime Rock willing to host other clubs at a lower rate on these muffled dates? It seems to me that Lime Rock fights hard to keep those unmuffled dates for us, I am not 100% sold on the fact they don't want us. I am 100% sold that they use whatever they can to charge us more.

Raymond "who is compeating with us for track dates that need unmuffled and no 13/13 rules" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond "who is compeating with us for track dates that need unmuffled and no 13/13 rules" Blethen [/b]

Pro Weekends. This year here is what is on tap. Grand Am GT, ALMS, Busch North, Rolex Vintage. SCCA has 5 unmuffled weekends. Remember also that LRP makes ziltch at the gate and in merchandise for SCCA weekends...

[Greg Amy]

...SCCA has 5 unmuffled weekends...[/b]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA [/b]

You are correct Greg. I use 'unmuffled' as the term for the 100db+ (103db I think) we get compared to the 89db days everyone else gets. I do not believe any other club gets the 100+.

[dickita15]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA
[/b]

Actually I believe this is wrong. The injunction that LRP runs under only has two classes of sound level. Unmuffled dates, 10 Fridays and Saturdays the three summer holidays and Tuesday afternoons have no noise restriction. The reason we run at 103 dB is that is the GCR standard.
All the rest of the days are muffled which muffled which has been interpreted as 89 although I do not believe the number is actually in the document.

[Greg Amy]

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...

[gran racing]

While I agree with you guys that these events run well, what you are asking is like asking a small local autox club whose events run smooth and well - to consult on how to make the Solo 2 Nationals run better.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.[/b]

I disagree. If we were talking about using this or other HPDE formulas to run SCCA RACE events, then yes. You’re looking too closely at this instead of viewing what types of things make the events so successful and well run. Why do we need to try and recreate the wheel? There are models out that that have been proven to be successful, use these resources. One problem I’ve seen is some regions try to run the PDX as if it was a race event – it is not the same and shouldn’t be run as if it were. A race event absolutely should be run differently than a PDX and should have resources allocated appropriately. Maybe this means that another group of people should be organizing these events to help with the separation.

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on…[/b]

Not being a jerk, but didn’t you just recently post this?

Now with all that behind me I am trying to look forward as others have in this thread so let me think outside the box a bit with alternate options... and see what people think?[/b]

I thought looking at HPDEs / PDX was exactly what you asked for. LOL

SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not receiving the same product.[/b]

Define the PDX product. In reality, there are (or should be) many similarities to HPDEs currently being run by numerous clubs especially in the beginning driver levels. Sure, I would hope it would be geared a bit more towards grooming people to race wheel-to-wheel if that’s their desire. It’s also interesting to take a look at how many NASA regions do this and learn from what they’ve done.

We’re looking for potential solutions to the increasing costs associated with running racing events, therefore the PDX discussion is very relevant to this thread. Some of us including myself are bitching about how high the entry fees are especially at Lime Rock (I do understand the track really the source of much of this frustration). We’ve pretty much established that LRP doesn’t care and the rental fees won’t be going down anytime soon. I continually hear what we don’t have control over, but what things do we have control over to reduce these costs? Why is running a PDX and generating some revenue to reduce the cost for the following race day, while providing an excellent service to potential racers so horrible? I do believe that it is critical to effectively utilize the PDXs tool, and not just as a potential source of revenue.

There are also many other methods that could be utilized to generate revenue for the club, but some of these ideas would require a change in mind set. In the end, it’s all be about providing a great product at reasonable prices the average person can afford. How we go about getting there is an interesting debate.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I disagree. If we were talking about using this or other HPDE formulas to run SCCA RACE events, then yes. You're looking too closely at this instead of viewing what types of things make the events so successful and well run. Why do we need to try and recreate the wheel? There are models out that that have been proven to be successful, use these resources. One problem I've seen is some regions try to run the PDX as if it was a race event – it is not the same and shouldn't be run as if it were. A race event absolutely should be run differently than a PDX and should have resources allocated appropriately. Maybe this means that another group of people should be organizing these events to help with the separation.

[/b]

I stand corrected. I wasn't reading that you were tryingto get help for PDX's, I thought races.

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right?

[dickita15]

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right?
[/b]

This time. we did it for a few years at LRP with the muffled enduros, but they were called HSCCC.

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...
[/b]

I have only seen these holy doctrines in hard copy and that was a few years ago.

[gran racing]

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right? [/b]

I also don't want you to think that we need to run out and obtain consulting services to run PDXs, but do think there's a lot to be learned from other clubs that have been running them for quite some time now. We do need more PDX events here in the N.E.

I know, track time is a challenge but using the other approach (incorporating it into a scheduled weekend) it is do-able.

[Matt Rowe]

Dave,

I'm one of the key people in NEDIV responsible for the Time Trials program which includes PDX. Trust me when I say that we have been out there taking notes on other programs as far as what works and what our target customer wants. Also, my own background in racing started in HPDE within a marque club and the events in NEDIV that I've been involved with build on that experience.

Now, most of the NEDIV events are being put on by people with a heavy background in Club Racing so there is some adjustments that we are working on. In other cases these events are started to be organized and run by a combination of Club and Solo officials as well as people new to race organization. That's the utlimate goal which is to have a program with it' own mix of officials so that we don't increase the workload on our current officials.

If anyone has any more input on PDX's or questions let me know. I'll be happy to answer what I can or listen to ways we can improve.