Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?

[lateapex911]

Yup, after just getting back from instructing for them at the Glen with Dave Gran, I have to agree, the events run very well. The schedule thing is great. I think part of that stems from a little time built in for clean up, but also from the fact that they are very careful with the run groups and who gets to move up. They take two and four wheels off seriously, (mandatory black flag) and two spins gets you a mandatory early exit.

The cars were pretty impressive as well. About a dozen Lotus Elise and Exiges, a couple Z06 and other assorted current gen Vettes, a 69 Camaro with fuel cel, a bevy of newer 911s (996s, 997s) and a GT3 version, plus a token Caddy CTS-V, and a flock of Subaru WRXs along with the usual E36, & E46 M3s.. My old 911 was the runt of the litter, LOL.

[gran racing]

Dave,

Speaking as a customer and now as an instructor for SCDA, they are absolutely top notch all the way from their scheduling and keeping things on time, amount of track time received, how friendly and helpful everyone is, and lets not forget the class room instruction.

At first I was thinking that SCDA and SCCA's PDXs are somewhat competitors, but maybe that isn't so much the case. Since SCDA has worked hard during the years and gotten the right formula for running these types of events, maybe SCCA should consider hiring them as a consultant?

[Andy Bettencourt]

At first I was thinking that SCDA and SCCA's PDXs are somewhat competitors, but maybe that isn't so much the case. Since SCDA has worked hard during the years and gotten the right formula for running these types of events, maybe SCCA should consider hiring them as a consultant? [/b]

While I agree with you guys that these events run well, what you are asking is like asking a small local autox club whose events run smooth and well - to consult on how to make the Solo 2 Nationals run better.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.

[RSTPerformance]

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on, but as far as SCDA and SCCA PDX type events are concerned I don't think they are at all the same. SCDA is a private organization that delivers a product to make a profit. SCCA is designed as a club event to allow its members to have fun and enjoy themselves. SCDA pays the workers (some way or another) while the SCCA (PDX or otherwise) events don't. The list could go on and on on how they are different. SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not recieving the same product. I don't think anyone at SCCA has tried or should think otherwise.

On the original thread... Dave Patten probably has it best... the red jackets, are probably the basic idea... In addition at NHIS the "cleanup crew" whom man the white trucks that respond to any incidents at NASCAR events are also track volunteers, NOT paid for crew from NASCAR. This could be another reason they are trying to "man" the track with a group of Lime Rock dedicated people.

And on my thoughts from before... Jake- Does EMRA (?) and BMW club pay the same rates to have "racing" days or do they take muffled dates at a lower rate? Has anyone from the SCCA Regions ever investigated this idea?

Raymond

[lateapex911]

BMWCCA, as well as PCA run with the 13/13 no contact rule, (I'm pretty sure) which is a much stricter contact rule than what SCCA, NASCAR, Grand AM, etc run with. It is my understnading that the costs associated with that are different.

We have a poster here from EMRA, Rob, so I'll let him adress EMRAs point of view on this.

Just as a point of reference, SCDA charged a driver $240 a day if he entered both days at the Glen, $280 for a single day entry. I am pretty sure that the Glen supplied the flaggers...enough that I saw them in all the usual spots around the long course...but only one per station. Of course there was a wrecker and ambulance on station as well.

SCDA charges $325 for one day at LRP. I am not sure how they handle flaggers.

Track time amounts to (4) 25 minute sessions.

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks for the reply Jake... This is interesting to me.

Maybe someone with more knowledge than us can say if that is or is not a factor in the rental price. it seems that it could be something Lime Rock would do, however turn that around and we now have some power. What other clubs are willing to spend as much as we do whom do not have the 13/13 rule? If Lime Rock charges us more because of these more leinient rules then if we were to go, then whom are these people/clubs who would fill in the dates for the same rates? Is Lime Rock willing to host other clubs at a lower rate on these muffled dates? It seems to me that Lime Rock fights hard to keep those unmuffled dates for us, I am not 100% sold on the fact they don't want us. I am 100% sold that they use whatever they can to charge us more.

Raymond "who is compeating with us for track dates that need unmuffled and no 13/13 rules" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond "who is compeating with us for track dates that need unmuffled and no 13/13 rules" Blethen [/b]

Pro Weekends. This year here is what is on tap. Grand Am GT, ALMS, Busch North, Rolex Vintage. SCCA has 5 unmuffled weekends. Remember also that LRP makes ziltch at the gate and in merchandise for SCCA weekends...

[Greg Amy]

...SCCA has 5 unmuffled weekends...[/b]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA [/b]

You are correct Greg. I use 'unmuffled' as the term for the 100db+ (103db I think) we get compared to the 89db days everyone else gets. I do not believe any other club gets the 100+.

[gran racing]

While I agree with you guys that these events run well, what you are asking is like asking a small local autox club whose events run smooth and well - to consult on how to make the Solo 2 Nationals run better.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.[/b]

I disagree. If we were talking about using this or other HPDE formulas to run SCCA RACE events, then yes. You’re looking too closely at this instead of viewing what types of things make the events so successful and well run. Why do we need to try and recreate the wheel? There are models out that that have been proven to be successful, use these resources. One problem I’ve seen is some regions try to run the PDX as if it was a race event – it is not the same and shouldn’t be run as if it were. A race event absolutely should be run differently than a PDX and should have resources allocated appropriately. Maybe this means that another group of people should be organizing these events to help with the separation.

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on…[/b]

Not being a jerk, but didn’t you just recently post this?

Now with all that behind me I am trying to look forward as others have in this thread so let me think outside the box a bit with alternate options... and see what people think?[/b]

I thought looking at HPDEs / PDX was exactly what you asked for. LOL

SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not receiving the same product.[/b]

Define the PDX product. In reality, there are (or should be) many similarities to HPDEs currently being run by numerous clubs especially in the beginning driver levels. Sure, I would hope it would be geared a bit more towards grooming people to race wheel-to-wheel if that’s their desire. It’s also interesting to take a look at how many NASA regions do this and learn from what they’ve done.

We’re looking for potential solutions to the increasing costs associated with running racing events, therefore the PDX discussion is very relevant to this thread. Some of us including myself are bitching about how high the entry fees are especially at Lime Rock (I do understand the track really the source of much of this frustration). We’ve pretty much established that LRP doesn’t care and the rental fees won’t be going down anytime soon. I continually hear what we don’t have control over, but what things do we have control over to reduce these costs? Why is running a PDX and generating some revenue to reduce the cost for the following race day, while providing an excellent service to potential racers so horrible? I do believe that it is critical to effectively utilize the PDXs tool, and not just as a potential source of revenue.

There are also many other methods that could be utilized to generate revenue for the club, but some of these ideas would require a change in mind set. In the end, it’s all be about providing a great product at reasonable prices the average person can afford. How we go about getting there is an interesting debate.

[lateapex911]

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on, but as far as SCDA and SCCA PDX type events are concerned I don't think they are at all the same. SCDA is a private organization that delivers a product to make a profit. SCCA is designed as a club event to allow its members to have fun and enjoy themselves. SCDA pays the workers (some way or another) while the SCCA (PDX or otherwise) events don't. The list could go on and on on how they are different. SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not recieving the same product. I don't think anyone at SCCA has tried or should think otherwise.

Raymond [/b]

I just reread this. I'm curious...assuming that SCCA were to hold an event on a day at Lime Rock that was not a race weekend, how would the "products" be different?

Both events use the customers cars. Both events require safety gear and safety checks. Both events are controlled passing. Both provide instruction in high performance driving to relative newcomers. Both try and provide as much track time as possible, and classroom sessions take up a portion of the off track time.

SCCA does desire, I assume, to create and groom drivers for future wheel to wheel activities.

But, if SCCA chose a point man, and some staff, and rented a stafffed track how different would the product be?

Do the customers see the flaggers as being different? The instruction quality?

Seems to me that as far as the customer is concerned, the experience could be very very similar. SCCA does have a good name to draw on, but to many that won't matter. Help me see the differences, from a customers point of view.

(My suggestion here is that, as far as Lime Rock is concerned, SCCA could rent the track and run a Drivers ed event at the same rate as any other club...and provide the same, or better experience to the client. I don't think it's that hard to put the peices in place .... SCDA has proven that..... but we would need to look at the formula and follow it.)

On edit: Now that I posted, I see Dave has beaten me to many of the same points...

[dickita15]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA
[/b]

Actually I believe this is wrong. The injunction that LRP runs under only has two classes of sound level. Unmuffled dates, 10 Fridays and Saturdays the three summer holidays and Tuesday afternoons have no noise restriction. The reason we run at 103 dB is that is the GCR standard.
All the rest of the days are muffled which muffled which has been interpreted as 89 although I do not believe the number is actually in the document.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I disagree. If we were talking about using this or other HPDE formulas to run SCCA RACE events, then yes. You're looking too closely at this instead of viewing what types of things make the events so successful and well run. Why do we need to try and recreate the wheel? There are models out that that have been proven to be successful, use these resources. One problem I've seen is some regions try to run the PDX as if it was a race event – it is not the same and shouldn't be run as if it were. A race event absolutely should be run differently than a PDX and should have resources allocated appropriately. Maybe this means that another group of people should be organizing these events to help with the separation.

[/b]

I stand corrected. I wasn't reading that you were tryingto get help for PDX's, I thought races.

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right?

[Greg Amy]

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...

[dickita15]

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right?
[/b]

This time. we did it for a few years at LRP with the muffled enduros, but they were called HSCCC.

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...
[/b]

I have only seen these holy doctrines in hard copy and that was a few years ago.

[RKramden]

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...
[/b]

I used to have a copy, and from my memory (which is rapidly becoming "senior"), and based on discussions with Jim Haynes many years ago, the 89 db limit is what the state uses (or used to use) for cars and trucks at 60 MPH on the highway. Hence, it can not be louder than what one would expect to hear standing next to I-95.

Of course, this ignores the sound emissions from a highway being, basically, a line source while the single car on the track is a point source, along with a number of other differences like full throttle vs. constant speed. (Along with the injunction, I also had a copy of all the state laws and rules, but those are missing as well.)

[gran racing]

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right? [/b]

I also don't want you to think that we need to run out and obtain consulting services to run PDXs, but do think there's a lot to be learned from other clubs that have been running them for quite some time now. We do need more PDX events here in the N.E.

I know, track time is a challenge but using the other approach (incorporating it into a scheduled weekend) it is do-able.

[Matt Rowe]

Dave,

I'm one of the key people in NEDIV responsible for the Time Trials program which includes PDX. Trust me when I say that we have been out there taking notes on other programs as far as what works and what our target customer wants. Also, my own background in racing started in HPDE within a marque club and the events in NEDIV that I've been involved with build on that experience.

Now, most of the NEDIV events are being put on by people with a heavy background in Club Racing so there is some adjustments that we are working on. In other cases these events are started to be organized and run by a combination of Club and Solo officials as well as people new to race organization. That's the utlimate goal which is to have a program with it' own mix of officials so that we don't increase the workload on our current officials.

If anyone has any more input on PDX's or questions let me know. I'll be happy to answer what I can or listen to ways we can improve.

[dickita15]

Matt brings up a very important point. NER road racing has no interest in running a PDX program forever. This is charity work for them. The only way it will grow in quantity and quality of events is when people who feel strongly about PDX start asking to help.
We went thru a similar start up with rally cross in New England. National had redone the program. We got a solo person to do the timing, a race driver to be event chair and a TSD rally person to secure a site and run registration. We ran one event had people said this is fun. The next year we ran another event and some and someone said why don’t we have more of these. Voila a program was born.
One of the key things that Matt got done when they rewrote the rule from HPCCC to PDX is it is now possible to “grow” instructors from within the program. Under the old rules you needed a road racing or solo 1 license to be an instructor. Track dates are hard to come by but once we have a group that wants to organize more PDXs we will find a couple of more dates.

[tdw6974]

.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.
AMEN!!!!