Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?

[lateapex911]

Holly crap $399 entry???

This is out of hand. ...... If you win the race or the NARRC championship, you have won because you are crazy enough to pay stupid entries like this.[/b]

Raymond...where have you been? Entry fees are a drop in the bucket compared to the costs some guys have spent to win the NARRCs or the NERRCs, or whatever. How about the guy who had new tires every weekend? Thats what, about a thou? Or the new motors twice a season? Think about it....it's not the $400 thats extra, it's the difference between 400 and the old entry fees, which were what, 300? That's $100....you think a guy buying a fresh set of tires every event is going to care? he won't.

I don't support the regions who don't stand up to the inflation of the cost, and I don't support the drivers whom support a $400 entry for a 2 day regional. I love the track, but the cost is NOT justified.[/b]

But........HOW do YOU know what IS or is NOT justified???? It's fine to say that, "Thats more than my budget will allow", but you haven't seen the balnce sheet, have you? Think about it...just the track rental alone of $54,000.00 (I think that's right) requires a lot of entry fees to cover, and thats not to mention all the other expenses a region incurs in staging a race.

Are you saying that the region is hordeing the money and lining the Regional Exectutives pockets with the surplus?

PS: Sorry in advance for the negative comments, but enough is enough [/b]

Negativity has it's place, but the facts count too....

[RSTPerformance]

Jake if you read my other posts you will see, that I "take back" my negativity towards the SCCA regions in reguards to what they are charging for entries at Lime Rock. Unfortunatly the track has us bent over and the regions are forced to charge that much to make ends meet. I would not want to be on the comp board right now and have to face and deal with these astronomical prices Lime Rock is charging. The whole situation sucks, and the reason is Lime Rock, NOT SCCA... we need Palmer Motorsports bad!!!

What I do think that the SCCA regions have messed up is the NARRC. They have taken a great series and destroyed it by involving this Lime Rock scam. I don't think that is right or fair and I still will hold that against all those on the comp boards now, and will likely not vote for them next season or any other time in the future... I still don't understand how $400 entries can be forced on you to run a series that not to long ago was affordable to ENTER at all levels (Not run at the top).

Also Jake... sure some guys spend thousands of dollars, to run, but not everyone. A select few ITA and ITS guys are spending tons of cash, but if you look throughout the whole class (not everone is running for 1st overall), the biggest expences might be similar to mine... That is entries, next comes repairs/maintenance to the car (due to an accidient at Lime Rock into the downhill wall), then tires, then travel.

Again final version... I am disapointed in Lime Rock for making the SCCA regions have to pay so much thus charge so much for entry fees, and I am disapointed in the fact that the SCCA regions are ruining a great series (the NARRC) to try and keep car counts up at Lime Rock so that they can break even. Lastly I am disapointed that I can't afford to race at this level.

Raymond "I will be at Lime Rock at an event or two to cheer all of you on, but I wont buy anything from the track!!!" Blethen

[lateapex911]

Raymond, sorry, I guess I should have refreshed my screen from last night before I replied this AM...

But, your quote does say "Win the NARRC" and only a select few do that...like 4 (5 this year with ITR), and for the popular classes, you're very lucky if you don't have to be on fresh rubber. I know that Anthony made the tires guy very happy, and I think Nick wasn't shy about spending the coin on tires either. And you are complaining about the costs and keep pointing to the entry fees...but..if you run three LRP events this year, you're looking at around $300 more than last year. I wonder what the percentage of the overall budget that works out to be for , lets say Bettencourt, (since he's been fingered as the NARRC likey guy)..I bet it's about 2- 4%.

Yea, it sucks, but it is what it is.

If you want your thoughts known, why not pick up the phone and call LRP? Tell them you object, that they are being unfair, and that you will never support any of their events at the gate.

They'll thank you for your input. Then they'll probably call the PCA and say, "You guys want another weekend?"

It's sad, but the SCCA is not the biggest fish anymore, and LRP has plenty of what they consider to be better options.

[Mattberg]

Exactly how much is the track rental cost? I've heard $40K, $45K, $53K, $54K... Anyone actually know?

[Jeremy Billiel]

Exactly how much is the track rental cost? I've heard $40K, $45K, $53K, $54K... Anyone actually know?
[/b]

$53k

[lateapex911]

It's been changing every year, but I think about 3 or 4 years ago it was in the $23K range. Now it's up to $52 or 53K. if I recall correctly. Thats for a club that races without the 13/13 rule, on a prime weekend. It's less for other clubs, like the PCA or BMWCCA, and less for drivers ed clubs, and less for non prime weekends (November) But I don't know those rates. My friends in the PCA tell me that the rates have risen though.

I should say that my info is not from looking at the balance sheets directly, so take it with a grain of salt....

[Mattberg]

Call it $53,000. If you get 250 cars, after insurance and sanctions, that's around $40,000 in "other" expenses. I'm curious as to what those other expenses are... You know me. I'm not one that easily accepts generalizations like "it costs money to run the region too."

[emarsden]

First let me say Hello to everyone as I am brand new as of today to the board. I will soon hopefully be sharing hundreds of photos that we have taken throughout the years at LRP and the Glen. I am 27yrs old and a scca member currently AutoXing my '88 scirocco 16v. Myself along with my brother and a close friend are working our way up the steps to obtain our comp license. Our goal is to someday race you guys!

This may be slightly off topic however being a avid spectator at scca club events and a paying member, I find it a bit ridiculous that they would not allow spectators into Palmer Motorsports Park when and if it is developed. If this is the case I prefer LRP over the new park. After all, I believe spectating at these events is one of the ways to bring in new members and/or spark interest in the organization as a whole (crew, workers, drivers, volunteers). It worked on us 7 years ago!!

Is NER stating this on their website to ease local minds that their town will not turn into a huge carnival once a year or more? or will they really allow nobody in the facility that isnt competing?

Again sorry if this is off-topic but I figured since we are discussing both tracks it would fit. If not please delete this posting.

[Greg Amy]

Good morning, "wing"...what's your name?

Speaking only from my personal perspective and experience, and most assuredly not for anyone directly related to the project, having spectators at road racing events is very expensive and not necessarily worth it. It requires people to manage them (ticket sellers/collectors, parking), infrastructure to support them (parking, food, drinks, rest facilities), and - most of all - significantly increased insurance costs.

As I understand it, Palmer is not - and never was - intended to be a spectator facility. In fact, neither is SCCA Club Racing. Given our limited funds and options for when/where we can build a track, it was an easy decision to choose to avoid those expenses and hassles dealing with allowing spectators.

Hell, even those SCCA weekends that spectators are allowed (all handled by the track, mind you), I could seemingly count the numbers of spectators on my hands and feet (old saw: what's the difference between NASCAR and SCCA Club Racing? In NASCAR the spectators know all the drivers' names; in SCCA the drivers know all the spectators' names...)

However, that does not mean that folks cannot get in as volunteers and crew, with or without an SCCA membership. All it means is that Dad and Mom and the kids can't show up unannounced and pay $40 (or whatever) to get in and watch from the side of the track.

It was a compromise that was fairly easy to accept... - GA

[emarsden]

My name is Eric. I apologize for leaving that out.

I do have to say that the crowd at the NARRC last fall was quite large. I was a guest of the region so I didnt pay but I am sure somebody made money on all the tickets sold. To top it off the racing was outstanding! I am sure a vast majority of those that watched last year will be back this year. I know I will. The Glen Nationals also draw a large crowd to their venue and I can tell you for a fact that alot of people go there year after year just to watch.

I understand and agree with your point to a degree. Isnt some of racing all about Mom and Dad bringing the kids to watch racing on the weekend? Would you be involved if you were never allowed to watch it because your parents were not directly involved in it(assuming they werent)? I am not slamming the way Palmer wants to do things, to me it just seems a bit odd that a club such as the scca would turn away spectators. It would be a horrible shame however if other facilities adopt this particular way of hosting grassroots events and not allow "the average joe" to watch racing at its finest and nowadays purest. In my experience AutoXing I know I enjoy seeing people on the sidelines in their lawn chairs watching and applauding a good run or even the best time. It would be a horrible shame (not to overuse the term) for those watching road racing to be turned away because they cost to much to be there. Bragging about your drive to win to the only two people you had to pass to get it doesn’t sound very appealing to me...

I didnt mean to turn this topic I just wanted to add my .02 cents

I will shutup now as this is another one of those dead end debates

[dickita15]

Greg is pretty close to the mark here. There is a cost to building a spectator facility that cannot be justified in the business model for Palmer. It is likely that SCCA Club Racing will be the “highest” form of racing at the Palmer track and the truth is not many people will pay to see that. NER is already on record as saying that guests will be welcome. Sign a waiver and come and watch. Other clubs that rent the track can set their own policy for guests but it will be a lot easier for them than it is now at local tracks as there is pressure not to sign in too many guests because that takes money out of the track’s pockets.
This is not about keeping anyone out it is about having a place to race.
No spectators does not keep you out, it only means you (and the other 12 people who care) do not have to pay.

[stevel]

I It would be a horrible shame however if other facilities adopt this particular way of hosting grassroots events and not allow "the average joe" to watch racing at its finest and nowadays purest.
[/b]

A non-spectator event is nothing new. Regions around the country have/are doing this currently for exactly some of the reasons listed here.

just my .02

s

[emarsden]

Thank you for clarifying that. I just read what they had on the website and I took it to be they would be shutting EVERYONE out. Nice to know they are not.

And there are only 5 of us haha j/k

Stevel - I have gotten into the non-spectator events by signing the waiver..

[raffaelli]

Interesting. I did not know that there are SCCA events that I could not go watch. At LRP I pay the guy at the gate and off I go.

The non public events limit everyone from getting in? Or just non members?

[Chipper1]

$53,000 is accurate for a 2-day regional (single or double doesn't matter)

Here are the track rental fees per day at Lime Rock over the last 6 years.
2002 $9250
2003 $7700 (this was the "1/2 day" regional don't know the full price)
2004 $11750
2005 $20500
2006 $22325
2007 $26500

The numbers may be somewhat off because LRP has charged a "paving surcharge" certain years which does not show up in some of the numbers. Most of the other expenses go toward taking care of the workers and insurance both of which have gone up.

The other clubs pay less because they run muffled events, but their prices have gone up also.

Our region has not made a significant amount of money on our race, and has been losing money overall since 2005. 2004 was the last "successful" event we had. That year was the last time entry fees were in the low $200s and we were getting 300 cars per race. At the rate we are going with LRP, we will be out of the racing business by the end of '08.

Our board of directors spent a lot of time trying to decide what the entry fee should be. We discussed $450 but, since most of us are racers, we couldn't stomach it. It's a no win economically. I don't expect we will get the 200+ cars it will take to break even.

I would not hold it against anyone who stayed away because of the price. I am not racing this year for family reasons, but I would probably not be doing any races at LRP except for my region's own. It may not be big compared with the whole budget, but there's no reason LRP should be charging more than WGI or NHIS. It's a free market and people should vote with their dollars.

I believe LRPs price escalation has been caused by primarily 2 things: 1. A desire to push SCCA out, and 2. Legal problems the track has had (of their own making) that have increased operating costs. I think LRPs creation of their own worker corps is exactly for reason #1. I think they prefer to do mark club events where people poke around the track in million dollar cars and don't mind paying $1K for an entry.

Final note: This would have been a double NARRC except that NY Region pushed a motion through the NARRC board which only allows the NARRC runoffs to award double points in one weekend and I apologize if that fooled anyone.

Chip VanSlyke
Treasurer, Mohawk-Hudson Region
#94 ITA, Acura Integra

[dj10]

$53,000 is accurate for a 2-day regional (single or double doesn't matter)

Chip VanSlyke
Treasurer, Mohawk-Hudson Region
#94 ITA, Acura Integra

[/b]

You guys really don't pay this do you!?!?!?!? I would understand if this was in Pecos. Guys go find a small local airport and setup a race course and put 10 to 20 K in your pocket!!

[Greg Amy]

Dan, it's just not that easy...

I moved to CT from Texas, damn near 15 years ago (I call it the "the good ole days" life...) Things are just done DIFFERENTLY once you cross over those political lines...

First, while it was reasonably easy to shut down the Ardmore, OK or Big Spring, TX airport in the late 80's/early 90's for a National or two per year, shutting down the 1-of-only-a-handful of airports being used by a lot of "folks with means" is just technically, fiscally, and politically e-impossible. Ain't gonna happen.

Second, space is at a pee-remium out here. Hell, man, you can't even piss on the side of a country road without a camera taking a zoom lens recollection of it (some requiring more "zoom" than others). Can you imagine someone giving up SPACE for something like a bunch of RICH GUYS driving around in their FEE-rarris and Porches?

Nope, "race track" opportunity is hard to find. Yep, "we" pay the fee, 'cause there just ain't any other way to do it...love them "economics"...

[dj10]

Dan, it's just not that easy...

I moved to CT from Texas, damn near 15 years ago (I call it the "the good ole days" life...) Things are just done DIFFERENTLY once you cross over those political lines...

First, while it was reasonably easy to shut down the Ardmore, OK or Big Spring, TX airport in the late 80's/early 90's for a National or two per year, shutting down the 1-of-only-a-handful of airports being used by a lot of "folks with means" is just technically, fiscally, and politically e-impossible. Ain't gonna happen.

Second, space is at a pee-remium out here. Hell, man, you can't even piss on the side of a country road without a camera taking a zoom lens recollection of it (some requiring more "zoom" than others). Can you imagine someone giving up SPACE for something like a bunch of RICH GUYS driving around in their FEE-rarris and Porches?

Nope, "race track" opportunity is hard to find. Yep, "we" pay the fee, 'cause there just ain't any other way to do it...love them "economics"... [/b]

Greg, I'm not telling you to buy time and shut down a "Class D" like Westchester (I flew a cessna 172 in there, was I shocked). Like you could afford it anyway. At least look at your options maybe a member know someone who knows someone, etc. etc. It is a absolute shame you are being F$*#!@ with your pants on. Hell, youn's guys are all invited to move to the Pittsburgh Area. Just a thought.

[Greg Amy]

I agree, Dan. Problem is, even the Class E airports (there is no Class F airspace around here) are unobtainable...hell, Windham CT airport, which is a dual-runway-and-taxiways, get-some-gas-and-go type of place, would never agree to shutting down for a weekend...think KLBE *everywhere*...hell, even Thompson Speedway, a roundy-round track that *used* to host SCCA weekends "way back when" is not interested in the business.

It's just too congested around here.

Palmer Motorsports Park is the only viable option for the long-term. If that fails, I strongly suggest that club racing in southern New England is doomed...

[Mattberg]

Palmer Motorsports Park is the only viable option for the long-term. If that fails, I strongly suggest that club racing in southern New England is doomed...
[/b]

Well if that's the case, better get those FOR SALE signs out because that project looks to have about as much chance as Paris Hilton becoming a keynote speaker at a Mensa conference... Not a word in over a year and what seems to be an underfunded one man show... Smell the coffee folks. I really do hope I'm wrong but I've been around the block a couple of times.

Probably should be looking at other solutions like the way regions are spending the proceeds from road racing revenues, how to get better track deals, improving relationships with tracks, marketing events and improving the product. It's hard for me to believe there are $40,000 in "other" expenses at a single event and that there's nothing left to address these things... well I can believe it actually...

Does anyone have a line item breakout of an event's expenses? Just as an aside I know of one region, not doing terribly well financially that last year spent $25,000 on their newletter and $30,000 on beer, not to mention sending three or four officials to the convention, all expenses paid. Think about it.

"...well I can believe it actually..." Try and think back to those insurance issues and the fact that we basically haven't bid the deal out since Pete Lyon and Wisenberg Insurance came along. Around $10,000 a weekend usually. And think about how you're paying for solo, pro racing and everyone else's liability share (the largest portion I'm sure by far). You all still feel the same way? Think about it knowing that solo's doling out a whole $30 while you're paying $400... Hell you can enter a solo for $40 without even being a member of the SCCA and get all the insurance benefits we do! We can't even bring a friend as a spectator! That's nuts!

And you wonder why entry fees are $400?